THATS what the paypal debit card is for. HERE is how it works when I sell.

I have bank account $3 balance. YOU pay me $100 I confirm this. I then drive on down to my local ATM and I WITHDRAWAL the money from my paypal balance in cash.

I reconfirm everything looks good online. I look at the cash in my hands. I mail your package.

See how easy that was? NOW when paypal illegally tries to “take” the money back from me NOW I have some leverage.

One of 2 things will happen. the bank refuses insufficient funds result paypal has to work with me.

#2 bank accepts and overdraws the account. As of this moment I lost NOTHING except the $3 in the account.

NOW the BANK has a choice. WORK WITH ME in fighting paypal (they will succeed) or EAT the overdraw because it will be a cold day in hell before I pay it.

I did my due diligence I followed the rules any “issues” with the payment are now PAYPAL’s problem. Period. I am going to walk away from it if I have to and lose NOTHING except at most my paypal account. Either way I will not lose my cash.

This can get more difficult with MANY payments but its still doable. make sure you need to ACCEPT any payments never automatic. I pop open my phone I click accept. I withdrawal the money. If something happens I hit REFUSE so at least the buyer gets there money back and its not “eaten up” by paypal theft (and that is what it is THEFT)

people need to start playing hardball with paypal.

When I take a credit card at our family business we verify ID we Verify “roughly” the signature and we physically imprint EVERY SINGLE CARD.

We are IRONCLAD. Except for when these rules have not been followed we have NEVER suffered a “chargeback”

as long as the names match the sigs are close and we imprinted the card we CAN NOT lose a charge back. Period. the CC company has to eat it.

With paypal this is not the case. We need to MAKE it the case.

Let me list some of the issues that exist and WHY this is largely a SELLER problem.

Negatives from excessive shipping. Well as a smart buyer there is no such thing as shipping. There is only one price. The price I pay* thats it. An Item is NOT $10 plus $15 shipping. Its $25 period. Is that a good price. Yes or No this is what decides if I purchase.

NOOB or uneducated (not dumb just unfamiliar with how these things work) however DO NOT see this. I do not see it because its normal I see it because I know how it works.

Regular folks DO NOT. this is the SELLERS fault not the buyers fault. Period. End of discussion. YOU guys inflate the shipping to burn ebay for the fees (YES I know why you do it I do not care and do not have a problem with it) but that does not change the fact that this ISSUE is a SELLER fault not a buyer fault. ON TOP OF THIS there is no “out” for buyers. you see when I goto amazon right before I click BUY it puts up on the screen HERE is your total here is your shipping If I do not like what I see I just don’t click buy.

its NOT the same thing on ebay. You have to KNOW to “look” for the shipping. Most people normal people do not LOOK for shipping because to them shipping is fixed minor and a neccessary evil.

You say its right there on the screen. It does not matter its NON STANDARD in how its presented and how it works. Period.

So user goes WOW look at that price and REAL QUICKLY hits bid buy and confirm not noticing in there rush to make sure they buy this amazing deal quickly before someone else does that its got insane shipping that makes this AWESOME deal just a normal few dollars cheaper than retail deal.

Thats a bummer to the buyer and I can easily see them being pissed about that. Sellers. Thats a cost of doing business this way. Deal with it.

Its YOUR job to educate your buyers it is NOT the buyers responsibility to educate themselves. Period. YOU want there money. YOUR soliciting them for money in exchange for product. the burden is on you.

When I see people selling boxes on ebay with “real item” BIN pricing. It does not matter if you list 1000 times in the auction this is just box thats fraud pure and simple. your feeding on the impulse nature of a deal seeking buyer. You KNOW some of them are NOT going to “read” your 1000 statements that this is JUST a box. Deception is deception no matter how subtle it may or may not be.

You complain about the quicky negatives. Well again thats a cost of doing business. its YOUR job to educate your customers NOT THERES !! I would make the very first line in my auction in LARGE PRINT this item WILL take 10-12 days to get to you etc.. Even then your gonna get trigger happy customers.

Here is one way ebay can fix many problems with one solution. Make it so BUYERS are UNABLE to leave feedback for sellers until AFTER the seller has left feedback first.

Then make it MANDATORY that sellers leave feedback or they will get penalized with a very large fee (several dollars say maybe even $5)

This forces sellers to leave feedback first and PREVENTS buyers from leaving the trigger happen neg right away. this mens you can wait until AFTER the customer has received your item until AFTER you have resolved any problems until AFTER you have communicated with your buyer.

Your MUCH more likely to get proper feedback this way and buyer fear over feedback hostaging is eliminated for the most part.

This also means sellers can not simply “not” leave feedback to avoid a DESERVED negative Feedback. Also feedback should have a 30day limit. If you can not get your item to the buyer inside 30-40 days then don’t do business on ebay. There should be a way for buyers to initiate an ovverride in case a seller is ripping people off and willing to eat the fine to avoid getting feedback. but in 99% of cases the penalty fee will be enough. Sellers think this is too much work? well tough. Cost of doing business.

The biggest problem is any solution MUST be largely automated. Ebay is simply too large to have one on one service for the most part.

Almost all problems on ebay short of ebay themselves screwing it up an boil down to SELLERS taking voluntary risks to game the system.

Drop Shipping. Feedback Hostaging. Shipping Fee Cost shifting (lowering price increasing shipping) Regardless of the reasons all these problems boil down to the SELLER choosing to do something to game the system (even if its a VALID reason its still VOLUNTARY risk your taking) With that risk comes potential consequences DO NOT come to me whining about them when that risk inevitably burns you.

YOUR opted for the larger profit that came along with the larger risk. Sometimes you win sometimes you don’t You could always opt for lower profit and lower risk that comes along with it.

For example its impossible for me to get burned financially on ebay when I sell (not that often I think I sold 20 items in my nearly 10 years on ebay I am primarily a buyer)

I assume 100% of the risk. At some point I MUST give you my money and have NOTHING in return for it. I get NO protection. Any form of protection I can take is a bomb. its a SINGLE shot use it or lose it deal that I can not do again.

You say wait I can contest the charge with my credit card. YES I can. but I can only do it ONCE. you see I am not paying with a credit card I am paying PAYPAL with my Credit Card and then THEY are paying you.

PAYPAL will CANCEL my account if I do that too many times because THEY have to eat the sale if I do this. I have to THOROUGHLY identify myself with paypal (in fact right now I am really angry at paypal they SOMEHOW got my SSN and I never ever gave it to them) I am thinking they got it when I signed up for the Credit Card. I was NOT told those two entities shared information when I signed up or I WOULD NOT have signed up (I do NOT trust paypal)

This means I can not just “make another” paypal account easily. Once I lose paypal I for all intents and purposes LOSE my ability to buy things on ebay.

I as a seller however incur almost ZERO risk from paypal OR the buyers.

You see I would NEVER EVER ship an item until AFTER I have cash in my hands. Not payment recieved. Not a line in paypal or my bank account but cold hard CASH in my hands. Then and ONLY then do I ship the item.

I also ship almost EVERYTHING registered. I keep copies of everything and I make notes and record everything. The buyer can not burn me because I already have there money. Paypal can not burn me because I already have the money. The Bank can not burn me because I never leave more than 2-3 dollars in the account.

Its just that simple. If you do it any other way no matter what the reason is justified or not YOU ARE ASSUMING greater risk VOLUNTARILY. Period.

DO not come crying to me when it burns you.

If all sellers did this YES profit would be lower. In fact many might go out of business because there will always be some sellers who do not care about the increased risk and are willing to take it to undercut you and get the sales.

Thats life. Thats how things work. Deal with it.

Done PROPERLY the buyer is the only one taking any risk here. If I pay you $100 for an MP3 player and you send me a ROCK. What recourse do I have?

I leave you negative feedback? Ok I am still out $100
I complain to paypal and ebay? Ok I am still out $100
I complain to the BBB and Postal Service? Ok I am still out $100

Notice a trend here? No matter what I do short of knowing where you live and educating you in newton’s laws with my fists I still got burned for $100 for NO FAULT of my own with no REAL chance to avoid that burning.

YES I took some risk buy choosing to buy from you online instead of from a Retail Store except in this case my inreased risk was not voluntary in the sense that I could get burned even if all went well. My risk is from FRAUD ie the seller burning me. EVEN Retail Vendors have this risk. I saw at lest 6 cases in the papers and news this past christmas if people buying Ipods and the sort from Best Buy Circuit City and getting a BRICK in the package.

HOW do you solve this? The vendor has no way to know if YOU did not put that brick in there or not (while most are sloppy vendors not checking a previous return and reselling it without looking inside OR employee theft)

AHH but even here I have protection if I used a credit card with appropriate protection policies in place.

Just my 2 cents.

At USAuctionsLive.com they believe that customer service is the FIRST priority. On the site they have several phone numbers in which you can reach a REAL LIVE person. And as far as scams go they follow up on ALL user information to insure it is authentic. They also allow feedback for every buyer and seller (negative or positive) Anyone caught trying to pull a scam on their customers will have their account terminated and their IP address blocked from the site! It’s a shame there are so many dishonest people out there who ruin it for the rest of us trying to make an honest living.

So many people are turning to Craigs List. But, what most don’t know is that Craigs List is owned by eBay. Sure you can list certain thing for free, but you have to list it city by city. There isn’t a store option or any other options for that matter. Lets face it how long do you think it will take for eBay to make Craigs List completely overpriced as well?

There are alternatives. We at USAuctionsLive.com have seen this coming for a long time. And like many of you we too were tired of being ripped off by eBay! We decided to take it to the next level and create an auction site that allowed live auction to be enjoyable once again. The sheer thought of having to pay out a percentage of your hard earned sale is sickening! And what you want your own store but you have to pay a monthly fee PLUS pay for every listing? It’s obsurd; you should be encouraged to do so by receiving a huge price break! And that is exactly what we have done. If you take a look at our store prices you will see you only pay a SMALL flat monthly fee and you can list UNLIMITED items in your store. We don’t charge additional listing fees, and close of auction fees. We believe it should be affordable and our customers should actually make a profit, not give it all to us.

We want encourage people not to give up on live auctions. So, for all of you former eBayers we want to let you try our sit for free for a month a test drive if you will. List what ever you want for free and utilize all of our features and see that the auction world can still be enjoyable. just go to http://www.usauctionslive.com and insert this voucher code: 8A156D26C5D4 for all of your listings. Then sit back and see it is possible to get back in the game.

“This price includes a 10% Ebay surcharge over our standard website prices.”

and

“We do not participate in the Ebay feedback system either as sellers or buyers. Please do not leave feedback for us.”

Pretty much, I’m hoping that buyers just look for our website and buy directly from us-we sell high ticket items, and 10% is pretty substantial.

Only the eBay users themselves can truly break the eBay Inc. monopoly, rescue our auction businesses from destruction at the hands of corporate greed, and save the original eBay person-to-person trading concept as an open marketplace of equals.

The eBay users—united, in our millions—can make a new fee-free home for ourselves on the Web and simply move there en masse, replicating the traffic of the eBay.com site.

Together, we can recreate the eBay Community, beyond the reach of eBay Group, Inc. The users made eBay the first time, and we can do it again—this time to suit our needs, rather than just line the pockets of FeeBay executives and shareholders.

Visit http://www.thepoint.com/campaigns/subat

Hm… wasn’t this whole strike a criticism of EBAY policies — feedback and fees?? The point is that the new Ebay policies makes it really easy for buyers to label sellers in a negative way, yet makes it very hard for sellers to label shady buyers in a similar fashion. Most buyers are definitely cool people, but you do come along occasional, straight-up thieves who will abuse an unconfirmed address to say that they never got their item, then steal your money (if you have not already withdrawn the funds)and/or SLANDER YOU AS A SELLER via feedback. There is nothing wrong with an unconfirmed address if sellers can warn each other when buyers abuse an unconfirmed address — or abuse the system in another fashion.

It is unwise for Ebay to treat its sellers so poorly. I am happy people are boycotting; I like selling on Ebay when I want to get rid of extra stuff, and I’d hate for it to become unusable for selling (and, therefore, buying) — which it will under the current policy for a very important reason: sellers know they have rights in the real world, and they won’t sell in the online world if they are stripped of similar rights. Brick-and-mortar sellers have the right to refuse service to buyers for any reason… say, a buyer is notorious for writing bad checks or harrassing employees. E-sellers should have similar rights… I should absolutely be able to warn other sellers to block a bidder who DEMANDS, impolitiely, that I deliver an item in person even though I DID NOT OFFER local pickup in the auction (this has happened!) — and then leaves me bad feedback when I refuse. I should absolutely be able to decide who I will risk doing business with, and I cannot do that online if buyers are not able to rate sellers!

“The posting by a Buyer and Seller is well thought and absolutely true” lost me already what is this sentence supposed to mean ?

“Do you have any idea how many times I have had to chase down buyers for additional info”

So what ? is there a point here ?

“A buyers job is NOT finished until the item is received and feedback left.”

Well your talking about a different job. SO your right and your dead wrong. As far as SELLER leaving FEEDBACK the buyers job is finished the moment they PAY. Period.

Your talking bout different job.

“How many buyers refuse to have their paypal addresses verified?”

THIS is not BUYER problem this is a seller and paypal problem. THE ONLY reason I have a verified account is because I was grandfathered in. DO YOU KNOW what is required of “buyers” to verify an account ? If I had to verify an account today I WOULD NO DO SO. I am simply NOT willing to give paypal that kind of information. They are almost a criminal orginization I use them ONLY because I have to and then I limit my risk as much as possible. IE I will NOT give them a bank account any longer. I simply do not trust them. I certaintly will not give them my SSN or my Driver’s License information. Again don’t trust them.

“Your error in thinking is thinking that buyers are the only people worthy of protection.”

NO my problem is that when it comes to FEEDBACK and FEEDBACK ONLY (the ONLY aspect “I” was discussing the SELLERS have the upper hand simply by with holding feedback.

THIS MEANS I HAVE no protection as a buyer because I now can NOT TRUST the feedback system to be even remotely accurate.

YOU have ALMOST NO RISK as a seller if you operate your business properly (any risk from BAD business practice is YOUR problem not mine)

As a seller I have NEVER been burned. Its impossible for me to be burned. Explain this to me. If I will not ship until cash is in my hand HOW can I possible assume any real risk?

As a BUYER I have been burned quite a few times (mostly MINOR stuff but its there nonetheless)

“I used a drop shipping company that dealt in imports. I had no control over the shipper.. over the shipping time.. and I rarely saw the products I was hawking.”

YOUR problem not mine. YOU assumed the risk of transacting business this way. Sure maybe its the only way you can do so profitably but this does not change the ABSOLUTE FACT that YOU opted to assume this risk.

“Now idiot and non-communicative buyers might receive and item that is defective and immediately jump the gun as if I tried to rip them off. Blast me with a neg.. when all they had to do was say.. hey.. what’s up with this messed up item? To whic blah blah blah blah etc.. etc.. etc..

AGAIN your decision to transact business in such a manner NOT MINE. Second you can REPLY to feedback. THIRD you can DISPUTE improper feedback (and if you can not this is an EBAY PROBLEM not BUYER problem)

BUYERS for the most part are NOT professional businessmen who “understand” the shady or risky business practice you implement in order to be profitable. AGAIN you made the decision to do business this way NOT THE BUYER. I am not saying your wrong but I am saying YOU assumed this risk and the associated problems that go along with it.

“I leave feedback once I see on UPS tracking screen that the item has been delivered.. unless the buyer has been troublesome during the transaction.. and I would then be a fool to leave feedback first.”

SO you admit you use feedback as a bludgeon. as a WEAPON to “keep buyers inline” ?? you DO realize that is NOT the what the god damned feedback system was DESIGNED FOR.

Buyers in reality should not even HAVE feedback. Warnings for non payment or being troublesome SURE but feedback ?? where in the real world have you seen BUYER feedback except online? Where is the BCB half of the BBB ? Does not exist.

NOW feedback for buyers online DOES allow transactions to go smoother WHEN its used properly. YOU on the other hand use it as a bludgeon.

YOU are the bonehead sir. EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM you describe has NOTHING to do with the BUYER and EVERYTHING to do with either EBAY PAYPAL policies or YOUR OWN business decisions.

You have yet to state ONE SINGLE PROBLEM that is the “buyers fault” ie that could not be resolved with a PROPERLY run ebay or paypal system and some of the other problems you just assume the risk of in how you conduct your business (I understand you must do this but DON’T then try to move the blame for your decision onto me the buyer!!)

Your commentary here is the basis of what is wrong with eBay today. Completely. The posting by a Buyer and Seller is well thought and absolutely true. I have been a buyer. I have been a seller. Your entire concept of the feedback system is just incorrect. A buyers job is NOT finished until the item is received and feedback left. Do you have any idea how many times I have had to chase down buyers for additional info.. as many have incorrect info.. or incomplete shipping addresses? Sellers need buyers to communicate with them. It doesn’t have to be complicated. Most of my buyers are excellent people. But there are always jerks out there.. and with a million buyers out there.. with 1% jerks.. well that’s still a heck of a lot of jerks. How many buyers refuse to have their paypal addresses verified? A lot. So how many sales would a seller lose to not accept their funds? A lot. But every single time you accept funds from a buyer with an unverified address you assume risk. Even with appropriate documentation buyers can receive the item, claim they didn’t and then the seller is out funds and the item. It happens a lot. Your error in thinking is thinking that buyers are the only people worthy of protection. That’s crap. You also seem to assume that sellers are automatically going to hold you in a feedback hostage situation. And sure there are some jerk sellers.. I’ve dealt with tons of creeps on eBay .. on both sides. But going into a transaction with the assumption that you are getting ripped off is wrong wrong wrong. Half of the sellers on eBay are stay at home moms.. (or dads).. or people with disabilities.. decent folks who will work with buyers to make it right. Things happen. I used a drop shipping company that dealt in imports. I had no control over the shipper.. over the shipping time.. and I rarely saw the products I was hawking. Most of the items were great. But this company imports containers of items.. do you think they check every item before it hits the door? No way. But if an item is defective or broken they will replace it immediately. Now idiot and non-communicative buyers might receive and item that is defective and immediately jump the gun as if I tried to rip them off. Blast me with a neg.. when all they had to do was say.. hey.. what’s up with this messed up item? To which I would reply with apologies and an offer of an immediate refund or a replacement item. Or to slam me because their item wasn’t priority mailed overnight to them when I very clearly state items take 10-12 days to arrive. That is out of my hands!! I leave feedback once I see on UPS tracking screen that the item has been delivered.. unless the buyer has been troublesome during the transaction.. and I would then be a fool to leave feedback first. I think that all buyers should try to sell at a large volume for 6 months or so.. then some of that buyer resentment would fade. Or else it should be mandatory that new buyers that a tutorial and online eBay etiquette test before being allowed to buy. That would be a positive step. eBay’s new changes are just wrong. And it’s a shame there are so many boneheaded people out there who can read accounts like mine and “Buyer and Seller” above.. and then still agree with your boneheaded statements.

BUYERS assume much risk JUST on potential negative feedback. A seller starting out with ZERO feedback is in a much more tenable situation than a BUYER starting out with ZERO feedback.

Whats that tell you? that tells me he is holding that feedback hostage and even STATES what feedback he wants to leave me. If I had less morals I would auto neg sellers who do that but SO DAMNED MANY of them do it.

At first I tried Educating sellers on why this was BAD practice.

Once I pay I am due feedback. I have COMPLETED my end of this transaction. As a buyer I will never leave feedback first it “encourages” this hostage feedback system.

Sounds like a lot of the OTHER things ebay is doing is just crap though. They are way to big and paypal is a REALLY bad idea.

I have a simple policy as a seller (I don’t sell often) whether ebay likes it or not. I do not ship until FUNDS are IN MY HANDS. I keep a throw away bank account attached to paypal with $3 in it. I use my Paypal debit card to extract the funds. I go home Leave feedback for the buyer and mail the package. The buyer DID THERE JOB they sent me the money. There end is DONE they get there feedback NOW.

That is the ONLY acceptable way for this to work. Period End of Discussion NO negotiation.

If they neg me for no good reason THATS what “responding” to feedback is for. Whenever I see less than 100% the first thing I do is FIND the negs (which ebay does NOT make easy BTW) see what it was about (you can tell trigger happy negs really easily) and MORE importantly the REPLIES from the seller and buyer.

Until I have CASH in my HAND I do not mail the package. Period. once the bank and paypal have your money YOU LOSE. that giant corporation has NO reason to work with you or negotiate with you. IF however you have NO money in the bank while payal will likely STILL get its money causing a negative balance in your bank account YOU ALSO have your money. The BANK now has REASON to “work” with you. THEY want there money. I make it clear I’m not giving it to you DEAL with paypal I will help anyway I can short of paying you.

THIS gives YOU leverage. Sellers who leave tons of money in there paypal attached account are just ASKING for it. At the minimum have TWO checking accounts at the same bank. as payments come in “MOVE” them to the other account this is free instant and easy online.

if “trouble” happens the bank WILL NOT immediately go take the money from your other account. you empty the other account and THEN walk into the bank to discuss the problem.

If paypal were to “freeze” my funds before I could get them I would FREEZE the mailing of the package. Reason NON PAYMENT. Period. End of Discussion. Payment is NOT MADE till I have CASH in my physical hands.

I got burned once by paypal I will never be burned again. PAYPAL is a really bad implementation of a really good idea. THEY ACT WORK AND BEHAVE like a bank with NONE of the legal PROTECTIONS to consumers of a bank IE they can anal rape you anytime they want and there is little you can do about it.

Feedback has to be fair. Buyers need DSRs just like the sellers on things like communication, timely payments, and the like. Sellers have too much to risk to take part in the gamble that eBay will become under the new one-sided feedback system.