Somehow i figure you are not the Zen type either. Yet you didn’t answer…

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Because there *are* stupid questions. (NOTE that the stupidity of a question is highly correlated to the age, experience & educational level of the asker.)
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This, as a general rule, applies also to answers, Ron.

The fact remains that it is in the best interest of the Linux community leave all this Messiah complex behind, don’t you think? Docendo disco, scribendo cogito. (By teaching i learn, by writing i think).

You’d be surprised how many people think they know more than they really know. And then get angry at the tool when they can’t get the tool to work.

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I wonder who are you to judge that?
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Because there *are* stupid questions. (NOTE that the stupidity of a question is highly correlated to the age, experience & educational level of the asker.)

We are, I think, satisfied that it is Unix-like.

That means that it is most easily managed with a CLI and text config files. (I *like* text config files.)

Here’s the elitism: on Windows, Linux, OSX, OpenVMS, AIX, HPUX, etc, etc Administrator/root access should be hard to get. You should prove your competence at the CLI, and knowledge of how to maintain a secure system before gaining such powerful privileges.

So, spend the direct money on buying one Windows box per task, or spend the indirect time-money on *really* learning Linux.

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Linux … still sucks.
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What about it sucks?

If the answer is “Can’t get it installed.”, then ask a local guru.

If the answer is “RPM Hell”, then try a Debianish distro.

If the answer is “It’s too hard.”, then use what you are familiar with.

I thought I had covered this pretty well. Short form, both operating systems could be much better. Windows could be much faster, more stable, more secure, but Microsoft doesn’t seem to care. Linux could be much better, more usable, more approachable, more compatible. I think Linux or some other open-source OS (perhaps ReactOS in a few years) has a good chance of delivering the solution I really want, but the Elitists and command-line snobs are keeping Linux from being what it could be. Perhaps they are happy with a great server OS and a great expert/command line OS. I think there are millions that are ready for a great user OS with stability, speed, and compatibility without proprietary controls.

It is true, I would give up on Linux in a heartbeat if Microsoft released Windows 2000 sp4 as an open-source project (flapping wings and squealing sounds heard in background). I still use and experiment with Linux because I believe it has the greatest potential, but as of 2008, it still sucks.

Does your doctor laugh at you when you do not know something? Does your mechanic do the same? I bet you wouldn’t be so kind if they were “harsh and elitist” about it?

I know you are (maybe) not self medicating, and I know you are not (maybe) doing car stuff by yourself.

Wouldn’t you like to accept that if you had a helping hand guiding you with your installation process it would have ended up saving you money and time?

Now that you can swim, you laugh at the ones who are either to afraid of the pool or have not left the shallow part of it yet. How is it helpful to bark at them? Was it helpful when somebody else did it to you?

It is indeed Linux’s fault, Ron. It’s not amicable enough yet. You had to buy a new computer to get to it and you shouldn’t have to. It is something most roadmaps aim to solve right now.

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I’d have to see your questions before determining whether such responses are justified.
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I wonder who are you to judge that?

Oh Ron, BTW, thank you very much for showing the “don’t” part of the “how to behave when somebody asks something you already know, or think they should know by now” manual.

But I didn’t blog about hating this blogging app because it can’t do any nesting at all.

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Unfortunately, this is the state of Windows today. And it appears it is only getting worse. My problem is that Bill’s available (yet crappy) operating systems are still more productive for me than using and programming in Linux. I can work faster, get more done, make more money, with better tools, in Windows by a significant factor,
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Then stay on Windows. I’ll not harbor any ill will towards you… (In fact, there’s a Windows laptop not 18″ from my Linux box. The company bought it for me, and I use it with VPN as a telecommuter.)

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I have years of experience configuring, managing and working in various Linux distributions.
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If Windows is so much more productive, then why use Linux at all? Since using Linux is so much less productive, using it is wasting money.

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The key to me seems to be minimizing the number of Microsoft applications that run on the desktop.
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You’re not the first person to say that, and I find it DEEPLY distressing that MSFT is training a legion of admins that computers can only perform one task per machine.

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Ironically, I have also found myself with a damaged Linux setup on multiple occasions. Even when installing a supposedly official RPM or whatever, it would lock up requiring some library, or fail, sometimes without reporting why, and the OS would have sanity issues from that point forward until I gave up and reinstalled the OS.
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There’s a term for that: RPM Hell. I got fed up with it years ago, and fled to Debian. (Everyone knows it’s popular progeny Ubuntu & Knoppix.) Because of the way that Debian packages software and the QA process that the packages go thru, system instabilities like you describe just don’t exist in “Stable”.

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And still on a few occasions, I have run into elitist, useless, command-line snobs, who tell me to “RTFM”, “You don’t deserve linux”, “Why don’t you run back to Redmond?” and other great bumper stick motto’s.
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I’d have to see your questions before determining whether such responses are justified.

I just went back and looked at my original post, and the reason I made that post. And I’d swear that the article originally said Core2 Duo, but now it says Core Duo. Hmmm.

They should either
a) know all about it, or
b) contact a Linux guru and ask them to do it for them.

Humility goes a long way. Even those of us who are elitist weren’t born with a silver penguin in our mouths

For two years, I tried on and off to install Linux, but couldn’t figure out how.

Did I blame Linux? No.

Why? Because I knew that Linux was installable. But I admitted my limitations, and bought a box with Linux PRE-INSTALLED. Non-root username and password already created. All I had to do was log in. That gave me time to test the waters, splash around with water-wings, then learn to swim in the shallow end. It took a year or more to learn enough to be able to install it myself.

As for RTMF, do that. And use Google to help you with unfamiliar terminology. If you are still stuck, admit your weakness to the mailing list… “I’m trying to understand this HOWTO, but it’s totally foreign to me!” You will definitely get help.

But it might not be the help you expect. If you just don’t have near enough background to understand the task at hand, the best answer might be “go back to Windows until you learn more about hardware” or “ask a local Linux geek to install it for you”.

There’s *nothing* wrong with that.

You will get hostile/condescending responses, though, when you think you know it all, that attitude permeates your tone, and ask stupid, obvious questions.

I could attack you in a similar vein. ‘”Why is the Reply button greyed out on Scott Lynn’s “March 29th, 2008 at 10:56 pm” comment?” I could go on about this being an ignorant statement. RTFM, blah, blah, don’t you know that this commenting system only nests to three levels of replies!!! How dare you lack this specific knowledge, I am glad you don’t use windows!!!’ Ok, that would be moronic. We all lack specific knowledge by definition.

But my main reason for replying now is that I totally agree with you on this comment:

“It’s always been inconceivable to me that the solution to every computing problem is “reboot & reinstall”. Computers software is supposed to be durable and modular and segregated enough that adding or removing one bit won’t make the whole house collapse.”

Unfortunately, this is the state of Windows today. And it appears it is only getting worse. My problem is that Bill’s available (yet crappy) operating systems are still more productive for me than using and programming in Linux. I can work faster, get more done, make more money, with better tools, in Windows by a significant factor, and I have years of experience configuring, managing and working in various Linux distributions. Windows, by design, collects garbage and driftwood and slows down. Software tools barely help, Antivirus really isn’t the main problem. I also have a number of machines that don’t run AV software and they have zero problems. The key to me seems to be minimizing the number of Microsoft applications that run on the desktop. Ironically, I have also found myself with a damaged Linux setup on multiple occasions. Even when installing a supposedly official RPM or whatever, it would lock up requiring some library, or fail, sometimes without reporting why, and the OS would have sanity issues from that point forward until I gave up and reinstalled the OS. I can fix a lot of Linux problems, but my knowledge isn’t broad enough for the nasty problems that have crept up.

My favorite part is when I go to the forums and look for help, after reading the manual, after reading the FAQs, after searching the posts and reading everything I can find that is related, I have posted carefully worded questions. And still on a few occasions, I have run into elitist, useless, command-line snobs, who tell me to “RTFM”, “You don’t deserve linux”, “Why don’t you run back to Redmond?” and other great bumper stick motto’s. The reason that I have settled on Xandros for so long is that their forums are fantastic, their users are informed and willing to share knowledge, and so far, the elitists haven’t moved in yet.

But I am still stuck in Windows through most of every day until the Linux desktop becomes viable. I will choose Linux as my primary system when it becomes productive for me, not as a lifestyle choice, I already have a great religion, what I want now is a great desktop operating system.

Tinkerers vs. Common People (for the lack of a better term) seems to sum it up appropriately. It is indeed a fact that most people would not be interested in changing the bus they ride to work if the bus just works (even if the bus smells) if they are not sure that they will get from A to B riding a different bus (say one is red and the other one is… errr.. i dunno… purple). That is why buses come with someway of identifying their destination. But let’s pretend they don’t. You ask around if you want to change your bus (”Excuse me, does this bus go to B?”). Would you appreciate that the one you asked for directions answered “harshly” and “elististically” (i know, that’s not a word, lol) (”Well, by now you should know that the motor on the purple bus emits less contaminants, and the tires assure a smoother ride, and I am glad you don’t ride the bus with us”)???

I remember the old Internet days when everybody knew everything but they didn’t want to tell you how to do it, because you, after reading manuals and such, would figure it out by yourself. I just hope that we kinda remembered that all that changed ages ago. Not all people that read those manuals will “get it”.

Given our position as “the ones who know” (and in my humble case, i know very little compared to tons of other people) we carry (or should carry, at least) the responsibility towards those “unknowingly ignorant”, and that is why we take almost any opportunity to say “Linux works for me, wanna try it?”.

Stupid questions? Yes, I am one of those who do ask them… because i want to stop being stupid enough not to ask them. I cannot make an educated question about something I don’t know, I am willing to learn and that is why I (the user) deserves respect. I know, i know, there are “pompous ignorants” (from the same branch of Pompous Buffonous) that knowing they do not know all (and who does, really?) feel superior enough to charge against those who know less.

“Read the manuals” means that somebody thought that there had to be a way to explain those who do not know yet how to do something. They used a convention that may not get the point across to people who know nothing about it. So then, those who now know can (and most willingly will) help the rest. And that is why there are guides and howto’s around the web to do lot’s of stuff (PC wise, because that is our topic at hand) on which not all intricacies are explained, just enough to get things done. What to do if it doesn’t work? Well, you can either call it a night, or go ahead and read yet another howto, maybe it contains links that might shed light on the subject.

But all this (and sorry for the long Reply, but IMHO it needed to be so) comes to the “Linux is better than Microsoft because…” arena. How do you get your non Tinkerer to try Linux if either a) You are HARSH AND ELITIST? b) Most documents do not cover what to do in case of emergency when dealing with a subject ? We’ve been all there, not a pretty sight, not something you would desire to anybody… You do all you know you should do, and it doesn’t work… Then you do some research, and it still does not work… You might be overlooking something but you just can’t put your finger on what it is. What do you do? Well in this time and age you blog about it.

Maybe somebody will understand what you did overlook and tell you “do this and tell me if it worked” (a.k.a. forums, comments), maybe you don’t get a response (not enough traffic to your blog anyways), maybe it’s something that has to do with something as absurd as a specific hardware combination.

If Linux is showing a more friendly face (Ubuntu “Linux for human beings”) shouldn’t we all be doing the same, just for the sake of making that less than 1% market share get bigger and bigger? Just a thought…

The tinkerers who download Linux install disks may be inexperienced, but they’re still tinkerers. They’re the kind of person who sees something different and thinks it will be neat to try. That is *not* behavior average computer users exhibit.

Average computer users have trouble with the concept of hierarchical menus and they keep everything on the desktop out of fear they won’t find it otherwise. As technologists we have an inflated view of average. So when we try to put ourselves (as you did) in the mindset of an average user, we have them try something they would never consider.

Of course you ran into trouble installing Linux. Installing any operating system is rife with problems. A user with a modern, floppyless computer, a SATA drive, and a Windows XP cd is guaranteed a harrowing few days of panic attacks and fits of flinging things out windows, just like you were with Linux.

But an average user will never encounter those XP problems because they’ll just trudge along with their computer as it is, no matter the problems it has, until someone more technically savvy comes along and points out there are problems that can be fixed. Then the average user will stand back while the savvy one fixes things.

Much the same thing happens with installations of Linux on average users’ computers.

Again, the people trying it themselves are inherently tinkerers. It’s a mistake to confuse them with average users because tinkerers enjoy challenges. Yeah, they get frustrated and yes they give up a lot of the time, but they don’t walk away spreading doomish messages about Linux. As you yourself did, they usually come back to it. And they do because they, as tinkerers, enjoy a challenge.

And god knows, anyone installing any operating system better like challenges.

To date I’ve installed Linux on eighty-four people’s computers. Three have not liked it, all three were above average in their experience with computers, and all three ran into dependency hell installing non-distro software. Well over forty of them haven’t changed a thing from the default installation except their wallpaper. And it’s because they don’t know or don’t care. They’re not tinkerers. They’re the average users.

Linux is far from perfect but from what I gather it needs to work most on graphical interfaces to system functions and an app installation mechanism that can handle random things being thrown into it with more grace and robustness. It desperately needs more and better niche software for non-technical users like the design industries. It doesn’t need a better installer. I’m sorry, but it doesn’t. The problems you faced are very real, but they are simply never faced by average users.

“Ron seems to come across as ignorant and elitist”

For 3 years, I’ve kept my wife’s XP machine virus-free without using any AV software, so I can’t be that ignorant about computing, on either the Windows or Linux side.

“I can restore the host OS in an hour as needed.”

But why should you need to? I installed Linux in Sept-05, keep it’s software current, and haven’t had to reinstall, *ever*, even through a major hardware upgrade.

“I can restore a VM to a clean condition in 10 minutes”

Again, why should you need to?

It’s always been inconceivable to me that the solution to every computing problem is “reboot & reinstall”. Computers software is supposed to be durable and modular and segregated enough that adding or removing one bit won’t make the whole house collapse.

But then, the vast majority of my computing life has been spent on “big systems”. (I consider Linux to be a big system, because of it’s intrinsic multi-user, multi-processing nature.)

“The only Linux people I know choose Linux as a religious or lifestyle decision”

That is correct. I use real computers at work, and so I wanted a real computer at home.
http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon

I have tried numerous distros and used a few on and off for 7 years now. I have generally had no problems installing Redhad, Suse, Mandrake, Knoppix, and Xandros. My problems come a few weeks later when some stupid driver or package is impossible to configure and I find myself trolling groups looking for instructions on how to change a setting in some file that is never in the same place on each distro. Or for that matter, I get everything running, and I find I can’t print to a fairly standard HP laserjet printer of some other stupid hindrance.

I currently use Xandros, my last “desktop” failure, but only as a VMWare server platform for testing and installing VMs. After a 2 year phase of getting IT people to try Linux, I have given up for a while. The only Linux people I know choose Linux as a religious or lifestyle decision, not due to features or usability. The Windows world isn’t much better. The OS’s are more bloated than ever, and Microsoft has been on the decline since XP. Microsoft wouldn’t know a streamlined OS if it bit them in the butt. Which leaves the Mac crowd is pulling market share, amazing when you look at their limited software offerings and the even more proprietary environment they have created.

For the record, I am a win32 programmer writing and consulting on business and retail apps and I run Windows XP with VMs of Windows 2000 and XP for my development environments. Running VMs has been the only way I have found to maintain a streamlined environment with minimal maintenance. I can restore the host OS in an hour as needed. I can restore a VM to a clean condition in 10 minutes with a Gig connection.

Linux could be far more influential if there were more Devin’s and less Ron’s out there. Unfortunately, the elitists have prevented Linux from reaching the mainstream with a real usable product. I am sick of Microsoft and I only use their OS as a base to run stuff. The only other decent Microsoft thing I use is their optical mouse. I don’t run MS Office, IE or WMP. I would love to switch to Linux, but frankly, it still sucks as a desktop. My greatest fear is that I will someday have to buy a Mac and go even more proprietary then Microsoft to find a computing environment with decent usability.

Why? Because anyone who wants to administer a computer (whether MSFT, Linux, OSX, Unix, whatever) should have a more-than-basic knowledge of hardware and how their OS works. If you don’t, should only be allowed to be a restricted user.

A hell of a lot of the viruses & botnets in this world would effectively disappear if people didn’t take the easy road and give their Windows accounts Administrator privileges.

“But that would be sooooo inconvenient!!! In order to install the latest unknown piece of mysteryware, I’d have to log out of my own account, and log back in as Administrator, install the software, log out, and log back in as ‘me’.”

Tough noogies. Making Windows so easy to use that any idiot can install any piece of malware just means that every idiot *will* install every bit of malware, and have to reinstall every 3 months. Giving Administrator privileges to “regular accounts”, and letting users log into Administrator accounts are the two worst mistakes that MSFT ever made.

HOWEVER… you’d be surprised how gentle that most people on the Linux mailing lists which I haunt are with newbies who
(a) admit that they are newbies, and
(b) are willing to read the documentation, and
(c) ask smart questions. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Nope, I think that most people around the IT world are a wee tad self glorified pompous God wannabe’s (irony, i has it). It definitively is not like that everywhere but you get your cases.

So, let’s see first of all the thing is that it’s better if you download the DVD, less to download later; second, stick to Ubuntu (if you want KDE or XFCE then you will get that later anyways, but you should know that the main branch of development resides in Ubuntu).

Third, know the beast, is your pc Intel or AMD, once you know that, make your decision on what version are you downloading. Is it 32 or 64 bits? If you don’t know, your best bet is 32bit.

Fourth, almost any machine boots from cd rom by pressing the C key at boot time… If it doesn’t, then reboot and press the key that allows you to select where to boot from (no need to go into BIOS for it).

Now we run the LiveCD (which by the way is a way for you to either do some “computing” on another pc, while keeping your stuff on the net, via email or ftp,…, or you want to testdrive the distro).

Remember Ubuntu is not the only Linux out there and it’s not the best either…. I love and use Ubuntu but you could love and use another distro.

Some other live CD’s to try, PCLOS, Knoppix, Fedora)… Stay away from BETAS, trust me on this one, if you do not know Linux then your best bet is to stay on the safe side.

Run the live CD and test for sound, graphics, and wireless internet… In this case, my findings have been that (in my PC’s here) it’s easier to find what to do with Ubuntu, again, its nothing but a choice.

If anything on that live CD doesn’t just work… Then try the next distro… do not go further than trying 5 distros.

In ubuntu there’s a small catch though… you have to remember to activate the restricted drivers once you finished installing (so it knows what to do with that hardware)…

If you do get Ubuntu or Fedora, get a hold on the “The Perfect Desktop” how to guide to help you install some other essential things you need (like flash and java support or VMWare).

What you get is a machine that works faster than using Vista on it. Get aMSN (looks like windows live messenger), get Wine (wine-review.blogspot.com tells you how to install things like Photoshop or Microsoft Office with that) and don’t let the terminal scare you, it’s just that it is easier for tutorialists to tell you what to do using it (and it’s always easier for us -for me at least- to copy paste their instructions).

Devin if you will like it, i could help you either with what i know now (not much) or searching for the right info on the web, so we can help some other users around the world by getting all the info in one place and get you started on this Linux “trend”.

Again i extend my most sincere apologies for whoever talked to you like Ron, this line of work/interest surely has it’s black sheeps.

I’m kinda glad you couldn’t figure out how to use Linux…

Bwahahaha! Classic.