Our buddies Rich and Eric got a delightful missive in their email boxes after replying to a CES meeting request about TVs. See, Rich and Eric run PhoneScoop, the best phone site on the web. They don’t write about TVs. The result of their polite email? A crazy message from HWH president Lois Whitman.
CES publishes a list of press. You are one of a few thousand.
Everyone has access to that list for all kinds of reasons.
It is publicly published.
As a PR agency we use that list so we can solicit press for booth appts
I hope you can appreciate that.
If you don’t, let me introduce you to the “delete” button
Or in the future do not sign up as a press person for CES.
Furthermore, do not make any threats to my company.
I don’t need you to tell me what is right or what is wrong.
I have been in the CE business for 42 years
I have seen nasty people like you melt away faster than a snowball going
up hill in the rainI am waiting for an apology
Maybe we can meet at CES for a hug or a slug
P.S. I just visited your web site. I would hardly call your blog a
publication,However, you do have very interesting content and we have lots of client
you would like to know more about to help you in your endeavors.Call me
Lois Whitman
President/Owner
HWH PR/New Media
loisw@hwhpr.com
HWH represents Westinghouse and Samsung’s HDD division and I’ve actually had no issues with them over the years (mostly because I don’t care much about Westinghouse or Samsung’s HDD divisions). This is CES season so I’ve been getting 40 calls and 100 emails a day about CES meetings and I think tempers are flaring on both sides of the PR battlefield. Unfortunately, however, I think Lois is out of touch and a little bit crazy in this email, but I guess that’s what you get when you deal with CE for 42 years. Eventually, given enough years in the biz, you know who will melt like a snowball in a rainstorm uphill on a Sunday in June after a trip to the Catskills with the in-laws. Keep up the good work, HWH!
UPDATE – Rich’s original email:
For the curious, this is what I wrote to prompt it:
“Please remove me from your list. My publication does not cover these types of products.
I did NOT sign up to receive info in this category, nor anything close. By CES guidelines, I should not have received this, making it dangerously close to spam. That reflects poorly on your company.
Thank you.”
I’ll be the first to admit that I may have been duped by the CES registration process, which implies that you are granting permission for PR blasts ONLY about the specific categories of products you cover. Some folks have told me this may not be the case.
Still, I don’t see how my email warranted such a vile response.
Good drama! However, this is only part of the story? What was the email that incited this response? Was there a threat to his company? A talking to about what is right and wrong? Give us the full scoop.
it was basically a polite email asking them to stop emailing them about tvs. that’s what they got in reply.
completely rude
completely rude
hmm… well altho i think they are arguably within reason on the request, don’t know if i would call it “polite” exactly… accusing someone of spam isn’t exactly like asking for a crumpet, thank you please ;)
(again, may have been a legit request tho not quite polite… but her response does seem kinda wack)
Need more info man.
jess
http://www.yocial.com
For the curious, this is what I wrote to prompt it:
“Please remove me from your list. My publication does not cover these types of products.
I did NOT sign up to receive info in this category, nor anything close. By CES guidelines, I should not have received this, making it dangerously close to spam. That reflects poorly on your company.
Thank you.”
I’ll be the first to admit that I may have been duped by the CES registration process, which implies that you are granting permission for PR blasts ONLY about the specific categories of products you cover. Some folks have told me this may not be the case.
Still, I don’t see how my email warranted such a vile response.
Yes that women is bat shit crazy but I think you could easily be categorized as a douche for a response like that.
You should know better than to reply blindly like that and the caps were a poor touch. Get over yourself please, you’re just lucky she bailed you out by being a bit less classless.
You’re spot-on.
I agree – the tone of the second paragraph is snotty as hell. It doesn’t justify her crazy response, but I would have been ticked by its tone, too. She needs to take her own advice and hit delete once the writer’s been removed from the mailing list.
Something’s definitely up with CES registration. I unchecked every “I’m interested in this type of product” box and opted out of e-mails, phone calls, and snail mail.
I can’t really tell where e-mails and phone calls would be coming from so I can’t hold that against the registration process, but I can absolutely tell that they gave out my home address because I’m getting random postcards every day from companies asking me to swing by their CES booths — and it’s stuff we don’t even remotely cover.
In what world is that a ‘polite email’?
Could I have been more polite? Absolutely. I’ll own up to that. I do have a tendency to be brief with my emails, and it often comes off as terse. I’m not proud of that. FWIW, I apologized for the tone in a follow-up email to her. She did not respond to that.
In my defense, this is an unusually spam-y PR company. I only sent this response after the twelfth completely irrelevant email in the last month.
Also, if I replied to each CES PR email with all possible pleasantries, I would not have time to actually do my job… or sleep… or eat. The number of CES PR emails each day is insane, which makes the most unnecessary ones all the more obnoxious.
Quit whinning, let me guess, you got a FREE pass to CES and then complain when people email you about their products?
If it was someone calling you, I would agree, but man, a quick email delete doesn’t waste too much of your time.
I’m not in PR, not a marketer and I too get annoyed with constant barrage of emails after I get a press pass, but that comes with getting the FREE pass as a PRESS person to a show that would cost you $500+ to get into.
Suck it up!
Love Lois response. Maybe a little crazy, but more of a rant.
Please print the email that was sent to this PR person. We deserve to know the whole story!!
@Rich – as we all are aware, tone in email is often lost. since non-verbal communication is about 90% of communication, we need to be careful.
I can only guess that the CAPS (NOT and ONLY), and somewhat tart response may have elicited this flame from HWH.
That said, I am not defending HWH. Definitely over the edge, and needs a chill pill (to put it in earl ’90s parlance).
I agree with Rich. As a PR person, I can sympathize with Lois’s frustration to a certain degree, but her e-mail is WAY out of line. E-mails and misdirected pitches make us all look bad. PR people need to remember to take an extra 10 minutes and actually read a reporter’s coverage before pitching.
Everyone involved need to toughen up. Who cares? Do you people seriously get bent out of shape by a ridiculous email from an old lady who runs a busch league PR firm? You should check out their site. Talk about old school.
It’s hilarious. Just enjoy it and move on people.
I think everyone is agreed that Ms. Whitman’s email is WAY out of line no matter how one looks at this. On the other hand, though – unless this was your 3rd, 4th or 10th unsuccessful attempt to get removed from their lists, was there really any need to leap straight to a not-terribly-veiled accusation of spamming? I’d have just ended it immediately after “I did not sign up to receive info in this category.” Period. No emphasis of ‘not’. “Thank you” and “Sincerely Yours”.
While I don’t disagree, Rich (and I) did sign up for things we’d be interested in. However, CES apparently dumped us all into a huge bucket of “press contacts” and, as a result, we’re getting bombarded. In Rich’s case it’s fairly egregious – it shows a lack of discipline, research, and general intelligence when you’re pitching TVs to phonescoop.
You should see the media list.
Vendors, analysts, and press all thrown into one huge unsorted Excel spreadsheet. They didn’t sort people by publication or name, let alone preferred subject matter.
Any PR person using that list, or any tradeshow list, as more than a “suggestion” of who might be attending is simply not doing their job. Those lists are always outdated and incorrect.
PR people need to stop being lazy and do their homework.
There’s something to that. Let me add that I only contacted them after receiving exactly one dozen emails from this same PR firm in the past month for things that have absolutely nothing to do with what I cover. It was receiving two within a minute of each other this morning that prompted my email.
I just can’t help being a big bitch sometimes. Sorry.
I love that you replied here! I can identify with the bitch thing.
If you guys want to be bitches, go work at the DMV. PR people are no more than glorified, overpaid lobbyists and once companies figure out how to put their own damn images and spec sheets online you’ll be out of a job.
Dear John. Yes. That is, in a word, all that need be said. Unfortunately I suspect you still don’t Get It.
Companies, in general, have no goddam idea how to put their images and spec sheets online. So you get one gold star there.
But that has got precious little to do with what PR people do. So you lose it again.
PR people ARE lobbyists, you twit. A slightly different term for essentially the same job — taking info and shaping it to be more interesting/useful, and building personal relationships with influencers who will then accept that information with some degree of confidence.
Except that generally lobbyists (because they suckle on the teat of pork-barrel politics) generally get paid more than PR people get paid in their wildest dreams.
Now go away, you uninformed and pointless human being.
Damn, I love that your industry is dying, and I love watching your professional reputation go down in flames.
You deserve every bit of it.
Everyone’s got a beef these days – media, PR and clients. Sucks to be all of us in this economy and with media undergoing a sea change. I don’t fault anyone here. I just hope I don’t off next.
Don’t you think that the statement below can be interpreted as an attack on the company?
“By CES guidelines, I should not have received this, making it dangerously close to spam. That reflects poorly on your company.”
And Rich got attacked back so I guess we’re all even. Lesson learned, let’s get over it and move on.
I certainly didn’t intend it as an attack. In fact, I was trying to help them out.
PR people are in the business of trying to create positive perceptions of the companies they represent.
As any tech journalist will tell you, trying to sift through the deluge of CES PR email is a small nightmare. Yes, it’s part of our job, but much of it is avoidable, and that’s frustrating. The worst offenders truly reflect poorly on the companies involved. I am not the only tech journalist annoyed with “those Westinghouse emails” that HWH keeps blasting out.
Most journalists do use the delete button… frequently. You get used to it, because you have no choice when there are 100+ CES PR emails in one day. Unfortunately, that’s when a few of the actual good, relevant stories get deleted by accident. That might be the most frustrating part. HWH is doing the whole PR industry a disservice, and creating a bad reputation for their clients like Westinghouse.
So when I said “That reflects poorly on your company,” that’s what I meant. I wanted to help them understand my point of view.
By the way, part of my response was:
“I do not think I was “nasty” in my previous email. I certainly did not intend to be. If it came across that way, I am sorry.”
She did not reply to that.
I work in PR. I am totally shocked at the reactions from other PR “professionals” who are backing this type of behavior. Jason/Rich, I don’t think your note was rude at all. Hello… she is pitching TVs to a phone blog. How would she like it if someone emailed her constantly about jockstaps, penis enlargers and Penthouse… Lois, you aren’t a bitch; you’re not smart enough to even approach bitch. You’re just a sad moron with a computer doing an AAEs job for 40+ years.
I like how she insults your publication, then says she has clients who would love to advertise with you.
Lois is CrAzY!
Personally, I think Lois and Rich were both out of line. Rich sounded real bitchy. Why tell a company that they are close to Spam because of one email? Especially when you are a reporter and they are a PR agency. And then say something like “This reflects poorly on your company”. Who is Rich – a School Teacher or Dad?
Regarding Lois, she just sounds straight up crazy. Even when she is getting mad at Rich, she is still pitching him. too funny.
It wasn’t just one email. I was frustrated that this PR firm had sent a dozen irrelevant pitches to me in the past month.
It does reflect poorly. I am sick of hearing about Westinghouse TVs. I don’t cover TVs. She is creating negative perceptions of her clients among journalists, and I wanted to let her know that.
Eff her – you are right, she is crazy, you weren’t out of line, you were actually nice – the people responding differently are not getting pitched nor are they in the business of pitching – PR firms dont do their homework and dont deserve the money they bilk out of clients – I am definitely not going to use her firm ever.
If I can just jump in here. I won’t go into the nightmare that is the CES press list. Yes, it is too long and many agencies are too lazy or understaffed to appropriately go through and select approrpriate parties to reach out to. Shame on them. I would beat my staff over the head if they spammed all 4,000 contacts, but then, that’s just me and my empathy for media inboxes and the people who have to sort through them.
But, CES aside, there are things that reporters can do proactively to improve what they receive and how they are contacted.
1. Update your Cision/Vocus profile on your specific beat and how you want to be contacted. Don’t just say “business” as your beat and “contact me through email only.” Be specific as to what you cover and and how you work. For example, “I cover SMBs in the Enterprise IT space.” and “I only like to be contacted through email. Let me assure you I read every mail I receive, but I only respond to those stories that I wish to pursue. So, please don’t robo-call me or spam me. I saw what you sent and I’m just not interested. If you would like me to follow your client/company, please send me a quick email with “Twitter Suggestion: Company Name” in the subject line, and outline for me how your client fits in my beat and the Twitter information. If I find something interesting you Twitter about, I’ll contact you. Cool?”
2. If you are being spammed/robo-called, call the CEO/President of the offending agency and warn them that their staff is annoying you and that you are getting to the point that you won’t look at what they are sending/calling you about. Let them know that if this continues, you will have no choice but to block all emails from their domain, if they do not let their team know how to work with you responsibly. Then, follow through if it doesn’t stop. No agency wants to explain to their client why they can’t get them coverage in a particular publication.
Net-net, PR people can only work with you responsibly if you give them explicit instructions on how to do so, and escalate real problems to invested parties. After all, they want to work with you and give your stories, and you want good stories to come to you.
It really doesn’t matter what Rich wrote to this person; she points out that she is the founder of a company (and someone with 42 years in CE — which makes her like 107) they should know better than to get into a pissing match with the media. Especially over something so ridiculous. Maybe she was having a bad day — but her attacks were really below the belt. GOod role model for the people that work for her, and I’m sure her client in questions (Samsung) will appreciate being brought into this!!!
I thought the company sounded familiar:
http://badpitch.blogspot.com/2008/09/samsung-westinghouse-digital-dotster.html
Lois Wittman has a blog!
http://loiswhitman.blogspot.com/
“Poor WSJ and NY Times—left 45 people voice mails.
I am going to be so outed by those publications.
Going home now. Turning on Lifetime and leaving more voicemails.”
Lifetime? be afraid, very afraid…
Is the TechCrunch network going to keep a section for ‘PR Bloopers’ somewhere? It would make for a good read, maybe updated each week.
Lois is not a Flack… She’s a Quack… please, this is an insult to everyone.
So, as @Toronto_PR_Buy points out, this isn’t Lois Whitman’s first ‘outing’ as a less-than-stellar PR person:
See here -
http://badpitch.blogspot.com/2008/09/samsung-westinghouse-digital-dotster.html
And here –
http://badpitch.blogspot.com/2006/06/hwh-public-relations-spam-e-mail.html
And here –
http://girlwonder.vox.com/library/post/the-most-sexist-offensive-pr-ploy.html
And, for good measure, here –
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/morgan-freeman/
SO, given that despite all of this (not so) EXCELLENT feedback they’ve received from the press and blogger communities, and that NOTHING has seemingly changed, how are mega brands like Samsung, Westinghouse Digital and Doster still giving HWH PR work? There are, after all, throngs of qualified PR professionals who do not operate in this manner.
Can these companies be so oblivious to the horrible name and reputation HWH is creating on their behalf?
Just sayin’…
PUBLISH THE WHOLE EXCHANGE! NOT JUST YOUR PART!
I miss Crazy Bread. Best breadsticks growing up in Detroit.
As for the pitch and response – it’s not hard to look up a URL, or look at a URL, before doing a mass email.
Just a guess that Phonescoop is interested in phones, such as smartphones or mobile phones.
And, putting the shoe on the other foot, I have been blogging for quite a while and get the same type of pitches that are 100 percent off target. If I get emails, and I’m just a blog on PR, how bad is it for the other blogs? Yes, it’s part of the PR game, but more important, so is targeted media lists.
I agree with Bob Carter, I think both sides involved here are out of line. If you want to be taken off of their list, just ask once, politely. It wasn’t necessary to say anything about guidelines or spam. If she continued sending things, that’s when it would be more appropriate. You also can’t just post her response without publishing the publishing the entire exchange. That’s not the right way to do things.
I produce a public radio show with a pretty narrow editorial thrust (let’s say, pigeon farming). I receive 2-3 emails from Lois Whitman a week about a variety of clients that have nothing to do with Pigeon farming. I’ve tried politely explaining our editorial guidelines, and asked her to either ONLY send us pitches that have even a tenuous relationship to the topic of pigeon farming or to remove me from her list.
She responded by adding my personal email to her pitch-list and not responding to requests to take it off.
A message to PR Flacks everywhere…you’ll get more responses from writers if you imagine that we are, in fact, human beings who appreciate some common courtesy.
She sure looks batshit crazy:
http://bp1.blogger.com/_B6bYJi3p1ZI/SBIceJ5Zo-I/AAAAAAAAACQ/-RHC3xjEsBE/S220-h/lois_glasses.jpg
hahaha sure does
Even in PR circles HWH has a bad rap. I just don’t understand how companies that operate like this stay in business. Public relations is not rocket science – it is about building relationships and sharing information. Not cramming your client down someone’s throat.
Poor Lois :(
We all have those days but the onus on any person sending bulk email is to respect and respond immediately to any / all unsubscribe requests. Period. Being gracious about it is not necessary but always welcome. Being needlessly rude has karma ramifications that will undoubtedly make their way back to her.
hahahah! That is a funny story and even if it is sounds so retarded it is the state of business as of now.
A good lesson of humility I guess.
Some people really need to develop transpersonal skills.
Read further back in her blog…
There’s an interesting one about her walking her dog, but here’s something more relevant on someone else who asked to be taken off of the list (from 2007):
Allow Me To Introduce You To The Delete Button …
This morning Ned Colt called from NBC London asking to be taken off. A cross-Atlantic call instead of a simple delete.
I think that tells you something about a person. I am not going to say what…
Junk mail is a necessary evil. Get over it.
I wonder what would happen if we all signed Lois up for every bit of junk mail and mail spam we could find. If it’s such a necessary evil she shouldn’t mind wading through that garbage to find whatever may be of relevance to her.
That is crazy. What was she thinking? And PhoneScoop is a big deal, duh! I would like to see there original email to her though.
Lois is waiting for an apology. I’m waiting for her to get her a** fired. If I had received a response like that, I would personally launch a Fire Lois campaign.
Her company. Her rules.
I think what she meant to say was “if I was her client (i.e. receiving her PR services) the last thing I would want to see is her running her cunt mouth to someone who could potentially write about my products.” I mean seriously, I don’t know if it’s her time of the month or if 60 years later she’s still mad that the doctor beat her with the ugly stick on her way out but … shut your trap you dumb bitch.
Back in the day (before it was ok to be a homo), we called a response like yours “gay couture”. Now we just call you an asshole.
You could have been more polite about it. I would have been just as nasty as she was.
I honestly can’t imagine responding to Rich (or anyone) in that manner – if the occasion happens where someone asks to be taken off a distribution list, the answer is “absolutely…right away, and we’re sorry.” Our clients measure us by our results, not by the number of emails we send…and anyone who has been in this business for more than a nanosecond should know that results do not come from targeting the wrong folks with the wrong information.
And yes, CES certainly did a disservice to all by dumping various contacts onto one list. But that’s no excuse for any firm to send completely off-base emails with no idea who they’re targeting. I’ll be the first to admit that we (as pr folks) sometimes have a hard time keeping up on every single thing John and the CG crew, Eric, Rich (and others) write…but at minimum, we should have a general knowledge of the type of stuff you each cover. As Pepper points out, how hard is it to look up a url…or do a quick Google search? I can’t promise that you’ll never receive a ’spam’ email from anyone at my firm – I would never pretend to control the universe. But come on folks – with two seconds to think about it, who would guess a site named “phonescoop” covers TVs?
PS. Eric and Rich – promise, I won’t ever pitch you TVs. :-) Keep up the good work.
Why is this posted here and not at PhoneScoop? I don’t get it.
Also, the OP should be amended with Rich’s reply, to be fair.
Short answer: I didn’t set out to make a big deal of this today.
I never asked anyone to publish this. I don’t mind that they did, (unlike Lois, I understand that anything you send to a journalist has the potential to be published unless you say otherwise,) but honestly, that was not my goal.
I just shared it with a couple of journalist friends who I thought could relate and might get a kick out of it. Although I do know John Biggs, I actually didn’t send this to him (nor Gizmodo) directly. I assume it got passed around.
How does an email message get “passed around” without you knowing about it. I can’t believe you are pleading ignorance. Or, if you are being truthful, others should be warned that anything shared with Biggs is fair game to be posted online.
I was only trying to explain why I didn’t post something about it on phonescoop.com.
I’m not trying to “plead ignorance”. I specifically said that I don’t mind that it was published. To be clear, Biggs (and all other journalists I was in contact with yesterday) acted 100% appropriately as far as I’m concerned. I did not intend to shift responsibility or point fingers in any way. If you read it that way, I apologize for not being clearer.
The worst part about Lois’ response was how on the fence she was. Coming off so rudely, criticizing you as not being a publication, but leaving the door open for a future meeting. aarrhh, I hate that shit-hypocrites. Imagine dealing with that every day.
Isn’t it vile? It really exposes the huge act that bad PR people put on. She comes across as a hateful person who – I assume – puts on a massive facade of friendliness when dealing with the journalists she deems “important”. I do know plenty of good PR people; I feel bad for how this reflects on their profession.
My translation of what she said to me:
“You’re an insignificant piece of shit.
Now let me kiss your ass and pitch my clients.”
If you would like to know what a full exchange might be like, here is my experience earlier this year: http://copywriteink.blogspot.com/2008/02/pitching-in-dark-click-on-click-off.html
The spam continued for months and months, which is why when they received the Bad Pitch Blog Lifetime Achievement Award, I was inclined to be a bit more direct.
http://copywriteink.blogspot.com/2008/09/earning-distinction-hwh-pr.html
It’s chronic and it gives hard working PR people a bad name.
Wow. That is hilarious. I would say that is 42 year too long in the same field.
She should have known better, but was it necessary to subject her to this humiliation? Regardless of circumstance, this was a private conflict and you escalated the violence by making it public.
Any sane PR person would not send such a disrespectful note to a journalist, which indicates she might have had a breakdown and needs medical attention.
It’s entirely possible that you have ended this woman’s 40-year career with the click of a button. She never had the power to do the same to you. Is it ethical to wield that kind of power against someone else? We all know there is no privacy in cyberspace, but we still have human decency and empathy.
This is a situation in which everyone looses. As a human being, I regret what she’s going through right now and what everyone has to endure to do business at CES.
But as a business-person, I will never trust or respect the folks at TechCrunch or PhoneScoop again.
It’s called ‘taking responsibility’ for your actions. There was no need for her to react the way she did. In that case, responsibility for her snarky response to a simple query by a journo. And JC, if you run a PR agency, i don’t think you’ll last very long in that kind of mindset.
Wow…did you guys take a look at her website? http://www.hwhpr.com
The picture of the 3 people on the homepage…are they for real, or is that from some comedy movie.
Methinks it’s “to the arena” for the lot of you.
After many years of dealing with CES I can only see sanity in one thing the HWH response says–the “delete” button part. It doesn’t excuse her from being a complete sh*t about Rich’s e-mail or knocking his site (and I’m still fuzzy on how he “threatened” HWH), but really there was little reason on Rich’s part to send an e-mail asking to be removed from the CES blast list other than to be bitchy about getting an e-mail he wasn’t interested in. And actually, I’ve found the best thing is to not respond since then a GOOD PR company will cut you from the list next time around.
Also, Mr. Biggs’ comment of PR people being “overpaid lobbyists” is a bit harsh. There are plenty of good public relations people out there that have made my life considerably easier over the years (and I’m sure John would admit the same). Unfortunately many of the agencies are run by people hopelessly out of touch with the current state of reporting and think that knowing what Twitter and Facebook are means they understand how to promote their clients to consumers and well, they simply don’t. If anything this letter from HWH proves that point. How these people don’t understand the damage that can be caused by an e-mail these days is beyond me.
What kind of crap is this? How does Samsung or Westinghouse justify to their shareholders that they’re wasting money on “PR” in this tough economy?????? F’in SPAMMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ve lived in the same building as this wretched woman for 20+ years and she’s more miserable than this email seems.
Spam the bitch back!
I write a blog about domain names and HWH people have spammed me about their clients for a long time.
This was a fun read, kids, thank you!
Happy Holidays.
Yikes, as an experienced PR manager, I have to say I’m appalled at her response. While I’ve had my fair share of run-ins with truly obnoxious editors with serious God complexes, never, EVER have I responded to one in the way this woman did.
I lost count of the cardinal sins of PR that she committed (off-topic pitch, spam, overly-aggro response to an innocuous email…) in the course of her communication with Rich. On the downside, she’s a pariah who probably relishes the free PR she herself is getting from her self-created drama.
I’m so not surprised that she’s been outed repeatedly by sites like the Bad Pitch Blog. She gives the rest of us PR folks who do act responsibly a bad name.
I’d love to invite all the self-righteous douche-bags posting filth and acting like tools to the folks who run this place to come to my house and hash it out with me. Would you like that guys? Would you like to stand on my front poorch and act like fuck-nuts with no personal sense of decency to someone’s face? Granted I’d be there on their behalf by proxy, but eh, wouldn’t you like to direct your venom towards someone who can talk back to you, instead of hiding behind the safety and anonymity of the internet, acting like something your mother should have aborted? I have to warn you that I’m a reasonably scrappy fellow, and I have no qualms about punching you in your arrogant, mannerless faces several times until your noses resemble nothing more than bloody hamburger. Just in case you’re the pussies I suspect you are. Get some manners assholes. Seriously, you people sicken me.