There’s an interesting poll going on over at 9to5mac right now. “Should Apple let 3rd party devices like the Palm Pre sync with your music collection via iTunes?” A good question, but, I think, a misleading one. Should Apple let? If we rephrase the question in a more positive way, we get “Should Apple actively block other hardware from syncing with iTunes?” As of this writing, 67% of the respondents have said yes, Apple should do just that.
Does anyone else find this shocking? In a world where every company is criticized for not having their software or hardware open enough, Apple gets a pass. In fact, Apple gets permission to regress — from the very people who stand to benefit from the opposite.
What harm is done in not deliberately locking out other hardware makers? Apple has a desirable product in OS X, and clearly iTunes is an important piece in the game, whatever game that is. They hope to expand their market share, but they refuse to take the steps that make it palatable for the non-converted. For some reason nobody seems to be bothered by the idea of an Apple blacklist, but for every other hardware and software maker it’d be a shitstorm. What if Canon decided that its cameras shouldn’t work with Samsung SD cards because they have a partnership with SanDisk? There’d be blood on the streets! Yet Apple could, and apparently is urged to, prevent others from playing nice, for no other reason than some belief that everything related to Apple should be under Apple’s jurisdiction.
Why not openness? Why not “bring ‘em on?” There’s a tiny risk of cannibalization of sales, but I think that would be more than counteracted by both an increase in Apple converts (who would later switch to iPhone) and in mindshare of the people who care about openness. Of course, this is a long rant to draw out from a simple internet poll, but sometimes one data point is extremely revealing, as I feel this one is. The willingness of the Apple crowd (and I’m typing this on a Mac so don’t start a flame war, kids) to knife themselves in the back is astounding. Apple’s products may be the future, but that’s only if the fanboys let the future get here in the first place.
People aren’t very bright. That pretty much sums it all up.
The metaphor doesn’t quite hold up there Mr. Coldewey. Apple sells Macs, OSX, itunes and iPods. Canon has no such ownership over Sandisk SD cards.
Additionally, Sandisk and Samsung SD cards are virtually insdistinguishable from each other besides the label. They serve the absolute same purpose. The same can not be said for the iPhone and the Palm Pre. They serve similar purposes, but are quite distinguishable and are not an open standard multi-media, like the SD cards.
As I understand it, there are lots of backhand deals, etc. between companies for establishining a standard medium. Someone sponsored the research, development, etc of SD cards and other companies pay for the right to manufactore/sell them.
Apple developed iTunes and the iPod, and now the Pre wants to piggy back on that success without paying. Apple would certianly be within it’s right to block the Pre from syncing with iTunes. This is about maintaining the quality of it’s brand and getting paid. And fact of the matter is, apple isn’t going out of its way to keep Pre users from using the syncing. Just like it doesn’t go out of its way to make each update of Mac OSX incompatiable with a hackintosh.
Apple opened itunes and the iPod up to windows because it could maintain its quality and profit from selling ipods to windows users. It has no such obligation nor financial intentive to let Pre users sync with iTunes. iTunes is free. iPods and iPhones are not. simple as that.
On the other hand, Apple stands to gain from opening up iTunes as well — as in more music sales. I totally agree with the writer of this article.
Yeah, but apples iPod sales could be hit by this, as a great thing with the iPhone is it works so well with a smooth working program, iTunes
If Palm doesn’t like it there are plenty of services out there to partner with. Instead Palm acts like a hacker and hacks it’s way for a free ride on iTunes. Yeah let Apple do all the hardwork creating and running iTunes while Palm just leeches it’s way in. I can’t wait Palm to be cut off.
dog are you kidding me, how many of apple’s products are up your ass right now?
Isn’t that just what Apple does with, for instance, Google Maps? Steve Jobs himself said he’d use an already-existing online music service if there was one good enough to suite Apple’s needs. I think your reasoning is b0rked.
I think Gustavo is right. There is no reason the explicitly block other devices.
And Apple said on it`s website that it doesn`t support and guarantee that it does work, but that doesn`t mean the will explicitly break Pre`s support.
So, the won`t change iTunes to support every other device, but I don`t think the will break support.
@Gustavo Noronha
You really don’t get it do you ?
There is a huge difference between what Apple did with Google maps and what Palm did with iTunes. Apple “Licensed” Google maps and had and agreement with Google to support maps on the iphone. Google has an incentive here to be on the hottest selling device currently. This is the same reason that Apple maintains Safari and iTunes on Windows.
Palm “hacked” themselves to work with iTunes. There is no agreement between the companies.
its your reasoning thats “b0rked”…
Exactly. If Palm want’s its device to work with iTunes, it should have to pay to do so. Ofcourse, Palm doesn’t have the $$ to do so, so it’ll never happen.
“There is a huge difference between what Apple did with Google maps and what Palm did with iTunes.”
Indeed there is a difference. I paid for the music through iTunes. Therefore I paid for the bandwidth and support structure maintaining the music on Apple’s servers. Claiming 3rd party devices need pay Apple for access to a service I paid for is not logical.
I pay through iTunes because my wife has an iPod. A sync service for non-protected content is as trivial as a copy operation. Why put me through a second step of going to the actual file folders and copying them to my Pre, when they could just have an API which allows a 3rd party to request the file location of the music and take care of the copy operation itself?
I think a point of the article is not that Apple doesn’t have the legal right to block Palm, but that they lack the moral right. They are the dominant digital music provider and the loophole Palm uses should not have been necessary. I say again, syncing of non-protected content is technically trivial. I’m glad a corporation actually made a gamble and forced this discussion.
If Apple takes active measures to discourage trivial and modest integration of the kind Palm does…then screw ‘em. They’ve become Microsoft and deserve every anti-trust suit and coy workaround that comes their way.
Thanks for the backup, borland.
Gustavo is right. This is not an issue of Apple blocking anyone this an issue of a hardware manufacturer not providing the compatibility. If HP makes a printer it is not up to Apple to make it work with their computer. If HP wants to sell its printer for use with an Apple it has to provide the support, software, programs etc.. It is not up to Apple to design the support. Apple is in direct competition with Palm. Apple provides sync capability with their Address Book, iCal, and Mail. They also provide support for Windows platform compatibility. They wrote that support for their hardware to provide that compatibility. Their MobileMe now contains support for Microsoft Exchange to provide their hardware customers the kind of support and compatibility they need and ask for.
Point your finger at Palm and ask them why they do not provide support. Palm customers who are dissatisfied may decide to buy and Apple device if iTunes is important to them. Apple does not have a vested interest in helping Palm keep its customers.
Wow, slappy here is the perfect example of this phenomena.
It is however, very interesting how apple has managed to distort their fanboy’s reality in such a way.
I wouldn’t lose faith in humanit just yet though, remember that poll WAS done in fanboyland.
If apple does ge to intentionally blocking the pre, I can’t wait for europe to start fining it like they have microsoft. But for that they’d have to release the pre ove here, though.
What percentage of Apple users reside in “fanboyland”? I’m guessing a pretty significant number, based on the frequency that Apple users try to convert me when they bring it up – which is hovering around 100%.
100%. People who aren’t even technologically inclined are still psychotically loyal and proactive Mac users. In my experience, its a very small percentage of those users who don’t fall into “fanboyland”. Which is indeed strange.
if by technologically inclined, you mean don’t enjoy wasting hours on end “optimizing” windows OS, then you sir, are quite correct. Enjoy your $100+ upgrade to Vista SP3 cough cough Windows 7.
Without intentionally sounding condescending (I’m sincerely not trying to), running Vista is incredibly simple. I know it got a bad rap out of the gate, and I ragged on it like everyone else. But its turned into a great system, runs just as well (faster, in some respects) than my brother’s $2000+ MBP, and is all around quite stable.
I haven’t done anything to “optimize” the system – I’m just smart about what I do and don’t download and install on the system. And it runs great. It does everything I need it to, and is capable of doing much more.
I’m not ragging on Apple – they clearly provide a valuable experience to their users. I’m simply remarking on the extreme “enthusiasm” which seems to be a common trait amongst their install base.
I’m not especially looking forward to Windows 7 – Vista has been great for me. But in the future, as a Mac user, you might refrain from ragging on someone’s argument based on anything having to do with price. Because that’s one respect PC clearly has an advantage. A $100+ “upgrade” to Windows 7 is nothing compared to what Apple users spend on their machines.
I’ve got to echo thebonafortuna. Neither Vista, nor Windows 7 is particularly bad. There are no “fatal” flaws in either operating system. Apple makes a good OS, they make good hardware, but they are not as high above Microsoft in software design as you might think. My parents, on an XP machine, are untroubled by the problems I have. And the problems I have are largely the result of installing and playing around with tons of programs and peripherals.
Mac’s benefits come at the cost of choice. A Microsoft PC to me is a compromise between the wild west of Linux and the strictly controlled ecosystem of the Mac.
I think a smaller percentage than you estimate are as rabid as you suggest, but a non-negligible percentage are intolerably extreme. Just ignore them.
I am a convert to Apple when they made the switch from PPC to Intel. I bought the first CD MacBook offered with SuperDrive and 2GB RAM with the upgraded HD. It took all of about 20-minutes to get the hang of the very intuitive OS. I never looked back. I installed Windows 7 on my MBP and I enjoy using it but not the issues associated with the registry and all the virus crap – and malware, spyware and such. I do NOT try to convert anyone. IF they ask – I tell them MY reasons for switching to a Mac. I bought my parents a MacBook and a nice iMac and from them it is 10x easier than Windows and I can remotely troubleshoot any problems they might have with the included feature-set on OS X. I would NOT have made the switch had it not been for two things – the conversion to BSD and the switch to a faster more efficient CPU and chip set. I am a very technical person and spent many years as a Network Engineer and Systems Admin so I know my stuff. For ME – I like the Mac. I am far from a fanboy as I despise several things Apple has done as of late and I think the PRE sync issue is a big problem for Apple as years ago they supported MANY MP3 players even after the iPod was released and widely accepted as the standard.
D
Fair enough.
Distort? If I build an store front that works for a device that I build. You very well be sure that I will block you from hacking your way to my store and leech off the hard work and money that I have spent to get it done.
But that’s the thing. You built a STORE FRONT, so sell your products and don’t worry what device your customer is coming in with.
you us the word ‘an’ when the following word starts with a vowel. i.e. “I am AN apple fanboy” or “I can’t think for myself” you get the idea.
… except when the vowel is pronounced with a hard sound, such as the “u” in user. And neither “a” nor “an” are actually words, they are indefinite particles.
And then their are archaic uses for words such as “hotel”, which is even more odd and complex.
Though obviously this is just more of that finicky, liberal-minded, communistic elitism that bothers Windows users about Mac users.
@Apeeild Rakahbarp
Nice, you have no compelling argument so you attack the copy of my post. Congratulations on failing.
dog thank you!
I wonder how people would have voted if you replaced Apple with Microsoft.
This article is so stupid. Apple can do whatever it likes with iTunes. They aren’t locking away your music …. your music is all there DRM free. Point any other music managing software at the itunes folder and organize and sync to the device of your choice. Nobody is forcing you to use iTunes.
Now from Apple’s perspective, developing and maintaining iTunes costs serious money. Now that palm hacked their way into iTunes, you want Apple to start doing regression tests with the Palm Pre on every iTunes release ? Why should they spend time, money and serious manpower to ensure that ?
Do you see EMC’s multipathing software “powerPath” working with non EMC disk Arrays ? Do you see Palm’s ‘HotSync’ software working with non Palm devices ? Why doesn’t Zune Market place support the iPhone/iPod/Mac ?
This is a retarded article.
I’m pretty sure no one thinks Apple should be responsible for Palm’s ability to keep up with iTunes. If there were an update, Palm would have to do its own work to remain compatible.
Remember, this isn’t a discussion about Apple and Palm partnering, it’s a discussion about Apple not allowing a connection to their software. Of course Apple would not be responsible for others’ work.
Palm should have to pay for the right just to sync though. If Palm truly believes itunes syncing is that vital to the Pre’s success, then they should have no problem paying for that right.
“your music is all there DRM free.”
Negative good buddy. It may not be Apple’s fault in particular, but I still have 80 songs I cannot simply move to a competing program. And burn / reimport is not exactly an easy process.
“developing and maintaining iTunes costs serious money.”
Which I, not Palm, have paid for. And as I said in previous posts, we are talking about a trivial file copying ability for non-protected content. It’s not that I believe Apple should provide tech support, it is that Apple takes measures to block sync integration. And the “hack” is merely identifying itself as an iPod. If it still works with that little effort, isn’t your point rather void about the cost to apple?
“Nobody is forcing you to use iTunes.”
Perhaps I’m wrong about this, but I don’t believe iPods are friendly to iTunes alternatives. So I’m stuck with iTunes as means of organization for my wife’s iPod and my own Pre. Sure you can legally tell me to suck it, but don’t expect people to worship Apple for deliberately making it difficult on trivial stuff like file syncing.
Well if the boys at palm don’t like getting locked out of iTunes why don’t they come up with an app store, music store and video store that is better than iTunes – but then, they boys at palm have shown that they like to live off of Apples work with the pre.
Apple knows other devices getting into iTunes is not going to cannibalize their hardware sales. The reason they don’t want it to happen is that the average user doesn’t know or doesn’t care that Apple doesn’t support their devices, they will just think it’s broken on Apple’s end.
For example, some user not using an Apple product downloads a movie or TV show, but then it won’t work on their device. Chances are they are going to either try to contact Apple or just get mad it doesn’t work and start badmouthing iTunes saying it doesn’t work. Most of the people here would know why it doesn’t work, but would the average person know the difference? If you have any doubt, just look at the post on TechCrunch a little bit ago. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/17/yeah-what-is-a-browser-anyway/
iTunes is one of the big feathers in an apple fanboy’s hat. If you let other smartphones have it, it one less exclusive checkmark on his iPhone comparison chart. For that reason, the numbers don’t really surprise me. Stingy bunch aren’t they?
actually, if you read throughout the comments here and other articles, this is about stealing IP and leeching off other peoples work.
“…this is about stealing IP and leeching off other peoples work.”
The RIAA says hi and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Seriously, stealing IP? Yep, they scored press by advertising iTunes syncing, but quite frankly it shouldn’t have been such a newsflash.
It’s not news that the Pre also syncs with Amazon, or Windows Media Player now is it?
I was amazed that the Pre got this functionality out of the box. It’s really a coup for Palm. I’m not surprised either that Apple fanboys think it’s unfair. They are an incredibly biased group. As for whether it is fair for Apple to block access, sure, iTunes is their software product and they can do what they want. However, I don’t think it hurts them to leave it open, as the article states. How many Pre sales (lost iPhone sales) will there be because someone has realized they can sync with iTunes on the Pre? A few hundred? Sorry, Apple doesn’t care. I think it’s probably just personal (Jobs vs. the “Judas” Rubinstein) or legal (defending some third party accessing your product without permission).
As a Pre owner and Palm fan (not fanboy mind you), I like Palm’s scrappy move against the giant that is Apple and hope they can “stick it to the man” as long as possible :)
Just another reason why Apple will always be a little fish in a big pond.
Yes … little fish … with more than 70% market share in the music business. With 26% market share in the smartphone business .. .and growing. With almost 40 billion in annual revenue, atleast 36% margins and 120 billion in market cap.
I think every company would love to be “little fish” like them.
“Released on Wednesday, the newest data from Gartner shows that Apple’s share of worldwide smartphone sales grew from 5.3 percent in the first quarter of 2008 to 10.8 percent in the first quarter of 2009. ”
Source: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10245339-37.html
The reason Apple is a little fish is their insular attitude towards anything not produced by their own hand. They create great products and then hinder them self with this attitude and some odd aversion to creating anything “Corporate”. Hence the reason the iPhone continues to be out sold by Blackberry.
I’ll await your insult with baited breath.
the iPhone doubled it’s market share in a year. Not bad at all. that’s really not quite bad at all, especially when you consider that’s probably a doubling or tripling of profits with the increase in smartphone sales.
And its ironic that you call Apple a small fish when they have more $$$ in the bank than M$, even with “small” marketshares, as you seem to be implying. Still, that’s not bad for a company that was close to bankrupt just 10 years ago. Just goes to show you that some people will pay for a name. It just happens that apple’s name is associated with great products, as well as quality, trendyness, and being expensive.
Please stop referring to the iPhone as just “iPhone”. It is not a being. The iPhone is a thing, requiring the use of an article before it.
I don’t know why everybody is going crazy over this advisory?
I took that statement from Apple as saying hey we aren’t going to support 3rd party whatever and we don’t guarantee that 3rd party whatever is going to work with iTunes in the future so you guys are on your own. I didn’t really take it as them saying they will be blocking it more like lets cover our asses when we make a change on our end and the whatever phone doesn’t work anymore with iTunes.
It would be shocking if such polls were reliable. But they are not. And I doubt anywhere near that number of Apple fans really believe that at all.
I suspect a lot of people who answer in the affirmative either didn’t think the answer through enough, or were concerned that Apple might have to give up some freedom to do what they want for some slavish notion that third party hardware companies should expect the right to access to iTunes, rather than do some kind of clean room reverse engineering as Palm would have us think they did to get the Pre working with iTunes. But they historians will have the last word on that.
I agree with all the people who say “it is Apple’s software, they can do whatever they want with it.” I hope they just remember that attitude the next time they are screaming bloody murder because Microsoft bundles in a browser, or media player, or makes one of their own search engines the preferred default. It is, after all, their software, and they should be able to do whatever they want with it.
Seriously though, isn’t going in and changing compatibility functions, just to break a competing product, EXACTLY the sort of thing that made everyone decide Microsoft was evil?
Sorry Lloyd, but your analogy doesn’t hold up here. M$ crippled the competitions software. Apple is crippling a competitors unlicensed software/hardware from working with its software.
Sorry to keep hounding you wiz, but good lord you do hit glass houses with stones. I don’t recall Microsoft ever preventing me from installing Netscape Navigator, they just made it difficult to bundle competing software. At least they never had the stones to call Netscape Navigator an unlicensed use of the OS.
Sounds…vaguely familiar eh? Kind of anti-competitive even? Someone using a position of market superiority to discourage competition and make sure the lazy never discover an alternative.
If Apple is a good company with brilliant people than they need not fear someone using iTunes for another device.
Way back in ancient history, it was proven that Windows 3.1 had specific checks to discover whether it was running on Novell DOS, and would pretend to crash if that were the case. But I don’t understand how that’s relevant. The big news is: both Apple and Microsoft are pretty appalling.
Heh, fair enough Tom. I hadn’t heard of that one even at the time. I can’t deny that Microsoft pulled some pretty shady stuff, nor am I a fan of their own anti-competitive practices.
Actually, Microsoft never crippled anyone’s anything. All Microsoft ever did, was use their market position and their inside knowledge of their own OS to make it difficult for third-party products to compete with Microsoft’s own products. That is exactly the same thing Apple has been doing from day one with iTunes/Quicktime/iPod/iPhone/AppleTV/OSX.
I personally think that is well within their rights, and if it were up to me, I wouldn’t do anything to stop either of them. However, you whiny Macheads need to grow up and accept that the argument cuts both ways. You cry like babies about how unfair it is that Microsoft has 95% of the computer market, and think they should be dragged into court every time they integrate any of their services, while crowing about iTunes dominant market position, and vehemently defending Apple’s right to do whatever they want to protect their closed ecosystem.
If it is “evil” to leverage the success of your product to boost adoption of your new products and stifle competition, then both companies are “evil.” If Apple has every right to do whatever it wants with its intellectual property, including blocking competitors from profiting from integration with their products, then Microsoft has that same right. This idea that there is one set of rules for Microsoft, and another set of rules for Apple is childish and idiotic.
I have have an Eddie Bauer wallet that I keep my money and credit cards in. Eddie Bauer has worked hard on designing, making, and marketing this wallet. If you come to the Eddie Bauer store with a different brand of wallet, you should pay more for that priviledge. Nonsense!
Eddie Bauer store? If you’re going, better do it quick. You picked an odd day to use that particular wallet as an example.
I had (still have) an Eddie Bauer backpack for most of college. Its sitting over in the corner right now, great product. Sad day for them and us.
Apple is crazy,obviously they are going to lose money by blocking othe devices like the palm pre from syncing with itunes. Pre already comes with a link to amazons music store. Why not let other devices sync and keep the money rolling in from non-apple users?
Good, I hope this forces Pre users to use Amazon’s music service instead of ITunes. The fact Itunes offering DRM free-ish music and selling it as an upgrade was broadcasted as some innovation still burns away the IQ.
Let Apple think they’re still a niche immune to anti-trust, I long for the day when Apple gets pulled into court. Oh the screams of the Applerati.
I’ve got a question: Who the heck would WANT to use iTunes if they don’t have to? It is such a hassle that I regretted my iPod Touch purchase until I jailbroke it, and no longer required iTunes. Why can’t we just use a simple folder structure that Windows users are used to? Why do I have to fight with software to simply copy a few videos to my device?
Dunno about this. It seems lots of companies come out with proprietary implementations (i.e. Sony’s UMD disk on PSP, et. al.). Many times these proprietary implementations crash and burn a horrible death — that they deserve.
However, once in a while, a company comes out with some cleverly implemented solution that’s seamless and easy to use and not cumbersome to integrate into your lifestyle — even if its proprietary. Apple’s iTunes falls into this category.
Palm Pre could try to use the iTunes ecosystem for their platform but they should carry the risks of using someone else’s implementation that they are not purposely exposing for others to use. That is, it may break at any moment. Apple shouldn’t be compelled to open up their API/system for another company just because they want to use it. If Palm Pre wants to use it and feels that their customer’s don’t deserve something better — that’s more stable — then the Palm Pre customers are getting exactly what they ask for. An unstable product (for music integration).
This is just a long standing nerd rivalry.
Jobs still has his panties in a twist over Gates stealing his window manager technology, so every time Gates fails at something, Jobs makes it his mission.
With iTunes+iPod+Mac+DRM, Jobs has succeeded where Microsoft failed; in securing a steady stream of revenue by making customers pay every time they want to do the thing they want to do most with their product.
So by making his entire product line a DRM funnel, Jobs has successfully said to Gates, “IN YOUR FACE LOL.”
i agree he does have his panties in a bunch and if they are soooo big on protecting what is theirs then the name of their phone is not even theirs sorry to say its a trademark owned by cisco and has been since 1996, their os is based on a freeBSD, their iphone touch technology is patterned by microsoft so what leg do they have to stand on talking about free rides they tried to get away with crap like ur systems and i really hate having to look for software or wait 2 yrs after a game comes out to get to play it as is the case with mac users. Apple’s profitability doesnt come from their mediocre computer buisness but from their mp4 buisness because without it they would have been bankrupt and thats a fact so to sit here and tell me what can connect to what on my system is absurd. get over it already you should just shut down ur computer biz and concentrate on media players and phones
My point is there should be option somewhere – Allow foreign (non-apple) device to sync. But it is more of a protocol culture.
It is finally users’ responsibility to sync or not to sync with given device. Apple should just not block. But is not forced to “support” other devices.