Stan Lee couldn’t have created a more hated super-villain than the Recording Industry Association of America. It’s the ultimate heel stable. Get this: a woman in Minneapolis, Jammie Thomas-Rasset, has been ordered to pay $1.92 million in damages for downloading and sharing 24 songs. That works out to about $80,000 per song. Clearly the RIAA deserves props. Mad props.
To the woman’s credit, she’s reacting much the way I would, if faced with such a bill: good luck getting that kind of money because I patently don’t have it. Says Ms. Thomas-Rasset:
I have no means of paying the fine. There’s no way they’re ever going to get that. I’m a mom, limited means, so I’m not going to worry about it now. The only thing I can say is good luck trying to get it, because you can’t get blood out of a turnip.
Let’s play a game. Let’s say you wind up in the same situation as this woman, faced with an enormous bill for downloading a bunch of piece-of-garbage songs. Now, I don’t have that kind of money, obviously. Nor would I really be inclined to pay a lesser fine, somewhere in the low thousands of dollars. To paraphrase Sir Alex Ferguson, I wouldn’t give that mob [the RIAA] a virus, let alone a single dollar. Where does that leave me, jail? What is the ultimate punishment a court could hand out here? (You’d think I’d contact the EFF or something to ask this question.)
And another thing!
rather owe a million bucks than a thousand. less to worry about. it’s a ridicoulous case. if I’d steal a couple of music CDs in a shop, handling them for money (which is worse than sharing them for free on Kazaa imho) – would I have to expect such a fine? I guess not. I wouldn’t suggest stealing, also not illegal downloads. but this is silly. leave her alone. focus on making good music. you will find people willing to listen. and even some willing to pay. just like for music in the streets or subways.
They should force her to listen to some of the music they are “protecting” – that should be punishment enough!
You aren’t kidding!
How would you like to be a PR guy for the RIAA? You’re doing your best, trying day in and day out to put a human face on an organization hated by everyone who knows of its existence, only to find out about this.
You would have to take it all in stride if you didn’t quit. I guess my question is, do you show up for your next attempt to publicly defend the RIAA dressed as Darth Vader or Adolf Hitler?
the PR people are trying to make the case that stealing music is illegal, whether we like it or not. they are trying to make the case for supporting artists. They aren’t “the bad guys” per see. They are protecting other people’s rights, not your right to steal music.
stealing is stealing. making an argument that its ok to do is absurd. but more importantly, the people who are getting caught are stupid. if you can’t protect yourself, at least turn off the sharing function so that you just download but dont share – you’d be in better shape.
The problem is that RIAA is not doing it for the artist but for themselves. They have been stealing years and are now miffed that someone else has dared to muscle in on their turf.
That industry is dead. But they just don’t know it yet.
We don’t have debtors prison here in the US so there would absolutely not be jail time involved.
Well, not debt related jail time anyways. You can twist and turn the law in many ways. She could face jail time if the judge and jury decides that she “stole” the music. You can definitely face jail time for stealing.
One thing that irritates me is that so many people assume that if we couldn’t pirate, we would go out and buy it. HA. Yea right. Maybe I would more often than I do now, but not nearly enough for them to notice a real difference. Just give it up. You aren’t losing out on potential profit and we’ve had it up to HERE with paying for shit media. I don’t give a fuck if every person and their best friend want to be in a band. I just want good music. I kid you not, the last couple albums I’ve gotten have only had a few good songs out of the entire thing.
Here’s my idea. Have a website where people can go to listen to full tracks of every song ever produced by your record company. If people like the song, they can buy it for a small fee (cheap enough to actually entice people into buying it and not downloading it for free). Otherwise, to listen to that song, they have to go onto that website every time.
Unfortunately.
“One thing that irritates me is that so many people assume that if we couldn’t pirate, we would go out and buy it. HA. Yea right. Maybe I would more often than I do now, but not nearly enough for them to notice a real difference.”
But if everyone thought like this and did this then there would be a noticeable difference. Im just saying that if there were no available outlets for free music (Pirate-website-wise) those that need this music would pay for this music. Meaning they would make more money.
1.92M is just ridiculous. Im interested to see what will come of it though.
At least we have Nine Inch Nails though. Trent FTW.
They’re just trying to make an example out of her. I’m not sure if I’m the only one or at least one of few, but this kind of stuff makes me want to support piracy.
She should be ordered to pay for the songs. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything else is ridiculous.
The law says otherwise.
The law says a lot of stupid things, dosen’t mean its always right.
She stole property of other individuals. I hope they bankrupt her, take her house, and anything else. Why you guys think it’s so righteous to steal intellectual property is beyond me?
I don’t own songs, I can’t sing, I can’t play a note. I don’t steal songs. And I own a company that has technology intellectual property, and I don’t want the Chinese, Russians, or other Americans taking that property away from me. The RIAA is in the legal, moral and economic right to fight for its property.
I hope that woman rots in jail.
I don’t know if “moral” is the word to use to demand that a mother with limited means be ordered to cough up $1.92 million.
Who said it was righteous, we are saying that stealing is bad and ruining the life of that woman and her children is even worse. I guarantee that if you weren’t hiding behind the internet I could find something just as heinous and evil as stealing 2 CD’s that you’ve done, and anyone else on the internet myself included. If the RIAA was the way any other agency worked we would have had quite a bit different reaction.
So take your frustration for your lack of talent and be an ass hole elsewhere.
Wow, you are one sad son of a bitch.
Yes, lets bankrupt and render homeless a single mother of “limited means.” Lets also throw her in jail so her child can be sent to a foster home where she could be abused or mistreated or simply forgotten.
Lets do all of that because of 24 songs?
You are certifiable and dangerous.
Life’s rough. She stole.
Ever heard of let the punishment fit the crime?
What legal precedent is that? Oh, I forget Akuma, you’re a internet lawyer. Whatever.
How about actually refuting my points instead of just going “you are no lawyer!”
“The RIAA is in the legal, moral and economic right to fight for its property.”
Funny how that works when you have gobs and gobs of money to throw at politicians and lawyers. For my part, I’m happy to stick it to the RIAA and MPAA.
By the way you socialists who think that you own everything, how about I take your car for a drive? Take your computer to use for my personal needs. Your house? Tell me, since you think property is free for all, please I want to come over and pick up some of yours.
You know she doesn’t have to pay. But her credit, it’s screwed for a very long time. No college loans, but her kids were born from a thief, so I guess it doesn’t matter. No houses. No more homes. She’s going to pay a steep price for her unethical, immoral, and illegal behavior.
“By the way you socialists who think that you own everything, how about I take your car for a drive? Take your computer to use for my personal needs. Your house? Tell me, since you think property is free for all, please I want to come over and pick up some of yours.”
Do you have any way of making a perfect copy of my car without damaging the original?
Then sure, go ahead, clone my car and take the copy as your own, I don’t mind.
Go ahead and clone my house too, the more the merrier.
Oh? Whats that? Its not possible to make perfect 1:1 copies of physical objects without destroying the original like how its possible to make copies of digital music?
Awwwwww, too bad, I guess your entire “steal a car” analogy falls to pieces then.
Once again a strawman argument. Intellectual property is like your house, car, or whatever real property you own. So, please, if you’re going to debate me, get your University of Google education up to at least the 4th grade level. Or better yet, STFU and get a real education.
No, it is a 100% logical argument and perfectly represents why copying music is not “stealing” and different than stealing a disk or a car, which is why the RIAA are trying to parade it as being.
Do you even know what a strawman argument is?
Because you CLEARLY do not know what IP means, my CAR is not my IP, it is my physical property, not my intellectual property, it’s blueprints however ARE Mercedes’ IP.
And finally, anybody with a real education would know not to use terms like “STFU” or try to insult the person they are debating with, completely ignoring the points they are making.
You didn’t even TRY to argue against me, you basically just said “you are wrong, I am right, so shut up” without anything to backup your side of the argument.
stfu motherfkr, i hope that ur mom or child does the same thing and u’ve have to pay billions of dollars cuz ur son downloaded shit loads of songs and games via torrents.
and then u’ll rot in fking jail and will be fked in the ass while dropping the soap. i bet u’ll enjoy that
Yeah, for sure. Rot in Jail.
Yeah.
Yeah.
…Hey, that sounds like a song I downloaded once.
The RIAA are the adult equivalent of a power drunk hall monitor. Sure they have a responsibility to protect all those poor starving artists, but can they do it like civil human beings… not a chance, they attempt to enforce absurd punishments for a crime that is about as heinous as jay walking. The rules have changed in the era of technology and we all have to adapt our business to reflect the added openness that technology has created. If the RIAA, or anyone else producing intellectual property can’t manage to find a way to make money when they have a desirable product then they are complete fools. I for one don’t think they should not be given legal recourse to complain about what they “could” have made if circumstances were different.
They offered her a $3,500 settlement.
She made a stand on principle.
She now owes almost $2 million because a jury of citizens, after hearing the facts, says she stole.
Her defense was that it couldn’t be proven that she was actually the one that downloaded the songs. She says it may have been her ex-husband or her kids. She offered no supporting evidence. The jury didn’t buy it.
There’s no question that she stole. That doesn’t mean that the punishment fits the crime. If someone stole from $24 from me and I caught them I would ask for $24 in return. This is a case for small claims court at best.
And apparently laws, a legally empaneled jury, lawyers, and an expert judge thought that she owed more than $24. Or are you smarter than all of those individuals? Oh, wait a minute, you know how to rationalize!!! Excellent behavior choice.
“Or are you smarter than all of those individuals?”
History has proven time and time again that two heads are NOT necessarily better than one.
Everybody and their grandmother could tell the N-Gage was going to fail….. except Nokia for example.
Ever heard of revisions? Laws change, and there are still a LOT of stupid pointless laws in effect today. Google Sutpid Laws.
Strawman arguments have no impact on me. And quaint sayings have less so. Once again, you state that you know better than the law. And you don’t, because you aren’t a lawyer, but, typical of many of the idiots I have to deal with in business, you have the University of Google education, which qualifies you for 3rd grade. Congrats.
You sure seem to be tossing the term “strawman” argument a lot without having any clue what it means whatsoever.
And in fact, you don’t even refute anybody’s points, you just claim “you Googled it!” without any proof whatsoever and assume somebody has to has to have a law degree to debate anything.
Bingo. She tried to take a stand and lost. Frankly, she should sue her lawyer for malpractice. Telling her to take case to trial was horrible legal counsel.
Sadly, she knew what her options were. She knew what the penalties for copyright violations are. She chose poorly.
“Where does that leave me, jail?”
Well, once that verdict is reduced to a judgment…how about garnishing your wages or seizing your assets.
Me? I would sell the judgment to any one of a thousand bill collectors for pennies on the thousand dollars. My satisfaction would come from knowing they would hassle you every day of your life. I would also wish you a long life.
Anyways…The woman was given a $3,500 settlement offer that she turned down. Sucks to be a dumb ass.
Steal someone else’s property. Suffer the penalty.
“Anyways…The woman was given a $3,500 settlement offer that she turned down. Sucks to be a dumb ass.”
Sounds like extortion to me.
You know, kinda like the mob?
Yes. A legal system made of laws, codes and precedence is like the mob. Akuma, you’re an idiot.
The only idiot here is you.
I said the $3500 “settlement” is mob-like extortion, and anybody with half a brain can tell you this Straw Vulcan stance is you are taking is about the stupidest mentality a person can have, its proof positive that you can only regurgitate what you read and cannot think for yourself.
$3500 seems like a pretty steep fine for $24 worth of music. Then again this is the same legal system that slaps the hands of white collar criminals who bankrupt thousands of families while fattening their pockets, and then sends a parent to prison who steals to feed his/her family. Fair never even enters into the equation.
Again, I don’t think she’s going to prison or jail. It was a civil case, meaning she owes civil penalties. If she can’t pay, she’s not going to jail.
But setting aside criminal vs. civil penalties, your strawman argument does not make sense. In a civilized society, it’s the fact that a crime is committed not the value of the crime.
BTW, every white collar criminal convicted of stock fraud, ponzi schemes and other notorious schemes have been locked up for an extensive period of time. And yes they get caught,
Yah this doesnt shock me at all, they make up a number by pulling it out of a hat. It has nothing to with how much she really owes, because she owes 1 dollar per song and should have to pay for bailout. They charge her 1.9 million so people downloading music should be scared, f*** you government, come get me see if i give a shit.
ive downloaded thousands of songs. maybe if the #$#holes making the music didnt flaunt their wealth we wouldnt feel the need to rip their music.
So, please move into my house, because you’re too lazy to work or create music. Your logic and legal attitude is a major FAIL. Grow up.
Michael what is your problem your so unbelievably hostile its almost scary. I would definitely consider myself conservative and a capitalist but I can’t help but refusing to support greedy and stupid artists. You should look at your comments and do some serious reflexion…. You are extremely angry hostile and rude… Get a life instead of insulting people over the internet.
They’ll never collect a cent. Cheaper for her to declare bankruptcy. They wasted their money. Well, no. THeir court and lawyer fees have to be paid by someone, and so they raise the price of music, so less people buy, and download instead, and get sued.
It’s a self-licking ice cream cone, brought to you by the ABA. Shakespeare was right…
They just want to make an example out of her and sweat her out a bit before the dogs be called off. She will do some community work and promise she will never do it again.
Community work is used by courts for criminal behavior. I believe, and I can be corrected by the socialist pseudo-lawyers around here, that this was a civil case with civil penalties. If she doesn’t pay, she won’t have a criminal record, unless she was smart enough to move assets. However, if they want to make a point, they can attach her assets, mess up her credit, and pretty much destroy her. I don’t think the RIAA wants a freeway cleaned by her.
MIchaelWS, how much does the RIAA pay you to wipe their rear? You failed to even make it look like you’re trying to educate the masses about the law! While I’m not trying to say that music piracy is justifiable, RIAA’s fear-mongering practices aren’t so either.
What I don’t get is why the RIAA hasn’t figured out a way to make it harder for people to copy songs from their CDs. It’s like having your house robbed multiple times and still leaving your front door unlocked. And their legal practices are like coming home and finally catching one of the robbers, and suing him for everything that all of the other robbers took.
How could they possibly convince the judge and jury that this woman cost them nearly $2 million in revenue by stealing 24 songs? Let the punishment fit the crime.
People, why are you even wasting your time arguing with MichaelWS .. he’s clearly a moron.
the feud i see here is one of the reasons why we have these silly lawsuits. I know that theren’t “internet” laws of behavior, but grow up and stop insulting each other. It doen’t matter if someone has a 3rd grade education or not. WS, a ti no te gustaria que te insulte que tu no hablas otra idioma aparte que ingles. education is a modern invention of humans, but immaturity has been around a lot longer. So, grow up, or not, but stop pretending to be a lawyer. I bet you might be one of those individual with just a BA and think that you know everything. There are many smart people out these in the world without a BA and are smarter than you.
Lots of arguments both ways. Some think stealing is stealing; and others think it is ok to steal intellectual property. The really sad thing to me is that she and her lawyers apparently think stealing IP is legal, particularly because she only stole a few items. The punishment, imo, was a message that others take the view that stealing is a crime, no matter what the stolen item is.
There are too many opportunities for people in the US to get what is needed to survive without stealing. She wasn’t stealing food, clothing or shelter. Those things are pretty well available free within the US. IMO, she is like a lot of people that think it’s ok to steal; period. What else does she steal? How far are you willing to let her (and others like her) go?
Except its NOT stealing! And I am sick of it being put on equal terms with “stealing”.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying its legal, but it is not considered theft since nothing is actually taken or lost, a perfect clone is made instead with no impact on the original.
Call it copyright infringement, call it unapproved duplication, call it whatever, but it is not stealing so stop calling it theft and stop using those incredibly fallacious “you wouldn’t steal a cd” or even worse “you wouldn’t steal a car” analogies.
The only physical equivalent of this would be if somebody invented a device that can create a perfect 1:1 clone of another physical object in minutes without touching, harming, or otherwise altering the original. Claiming downloading a song is like stealing somebody’s car is COMPLETELY incorrect.
My question is “why her?” What about her situation made the RIAA come after her instead of anybody else on the internet? 24 songs? Heck, I get more songs than that sent to me by e-mail (unsolicited mind).
Here’s a simple solution… put the RIAA out of business. Don’t buy anymore more music. I didn’t say steal music, I said don’t buy it. I mean most of us could put our MP3 player on random and listen for two weeks without hearing the same song.
No income, nothing for the RIAA to do and they go bankrupt, then maybe we’ll get some reasonable fees and licensing for music. Same thing applies to movies, TV shows, and books.
I really can’t see Random House suing me because I loaned out a couple of my books to my friends.
Yes, she stole. There is actually a law about punishment fitting the crime… maybe everyone should look it up… the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution… you remember the one that “forbids excessive bail or fines, and cruel and unusual punishment.”
Heck, a decent lawyer could probably take this one to the Supreme Court if an appeals court didn’t nix it.
I agree. Why individuals period?
The spirit of copyright laws are not designed for home users, they are designed for people who copy an album the mass produce said copies and distribute them for monetary gains. As none of these people have ever profited from the sharing of said music it really begs the question, why can I go to china town in LA and buy any movie or music album that is clearly pirated?
Where was the RIAA when we were recording songs from the radio and making mix tapes for our friends? The only difference today is that the quality of ‘broadcast’ is better (slightly) and the music is worse.
Next thing you know, they’re gonna go after the library…
Man MichealWS, Im not the most educated but i know i Silver Spoon Scum Bag when I see one. When mommy and daddy coddled you, and paid for your college and probaly bought you some cars in your life us normal people have to take every advantage we can. So you think $80,000. is fair per song? Why stop there? Why not ask for a bagillion dollars. I hope some hacker is reading all this and see’s what a tool bag you really are and finds some way to hack into your bussiness and personal info and crushes you. You here that Warez PLEASE HELP BRING THIS GUY OFF HIS HIGH HORSE. Oh and I hope your kid gets bullyed at school.
Oh you should see if the RIAA is hiring, I think you would be perfect for them, SCUM, SCUM,SCUM. And you guys at Crunch Gear should hire this guy. I can’t remember the last time I’ve read something thats got me this fired up.
what if you accept it than claim bankruptcy?
Jon makes a good point. However they changed the bankruptcy laws a year or 2 ago, your debt is no longer automatically scrubbed in all cases, now you have to pay back some times, at a reduced rate.
My suggestion as a punishment for these people…
Bill them the 13$ for each album they stole a song from. 24 songs x 13 dollars = 312$ a resonable fine + 100 dollars court fees. The money should then be returned directly to the copy right holder. Not a dime to the RIAA. If they wish to chase after these people then they do so from their own pocket. Proper punishment for the crime.
she has done something against the law and needed to face the penalty. However, it is too much for her to face.
The penalty should be equivalent to shoplifting 2 CDs. End of story.
Some strange people on here would probably not flinch if they executed her or cut of her hand .. summer is here and the weirdos are out … maybe they are using their limited PC access in their secure medical facility … ;-)
Interesting arguing here. And the funny part that half of these post are like child brawl when person can’t make a sound argument, he tries to hit you as an argument. I.e. I’m right because I’m stronger:)
LOL
As for the case, how sure is everyone that she actually shared? I haven’t seen much arguing on that. Everyone is talking about fine amount itself, but what about prof that it was here who had done the wrongdoing? The logic is her computer – she did it. Period. Can anyone bet their lifesaving on that?
I don’t know this law for (not many others). But we all always share something. Even books. Don’t we? So, aren’t you suppose to make profit after you stole this IP to break the law? If I give you my “whaever” book to read, have I broken the law? I know I do break it if I copy that book and sell it to you (and many others) for profit.
P.S. for those still buying CDs and paying $14-$25 per one – how about amazon and itunes? you pay only for what you like? So record companies would not be creating 14 crappy song with 1 good hit and selling it to you? Just pay for that one hit $1 and live happily ever after.
P.P.S And please lets have normal adult level logical discussion.
Pirate Bay , thank you very much.
bit torrent and peerguardian2 (PG2)